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Post by mrspettyfer on Dec 16, 2012 0:01:47 GMT -6
Agreed. And how about the fact that Katara NEVER denies what the actress said? She avoids his question, essentially.
I mean..how can the fact that she never denies it NOT bother Aang? She gives him no real signs that she likes him as more than a friend..and the audience doesn't see it either. In comparison with Mako and Korra, at least we see Mako's denial face when he tells Korra he doesn't feel that way about her in EP5. WE know he's denying it, even if Korra doesn't.
With Katara...I swear I can't think of any of her behvaior that read romantically interested in Aang to me. Not even the dance. That was killed when she kissed him on the cheek like always, the mother goose she is. Kataang shippers get really angry when people call Katara motherly toward Aang but it's just true.
Let's also talk about how young and immature this thought process is: "We kissed at the invasion and I thought we were gonna be together, but we're not."
Alright...Aang is mature in some areas, but clearly not with relationships. Kissing does not = being in a relationship. That thought process is childish. Not to mention he kissed HER right before he was going to be fighting the Fire Lord. Katara most likely wrote that off as a "I may never see you again" type of kiss.
And he says he thought they would be together after the kiss..then why the heck is he just NOW bringing it up? 7 episodes later? By the EIP I forgot that kiss even happened since everyone was acting like it didn't happen. lmao Ugh such fail.
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honeybee
Bender
Canon? What's That? O_o
Posts: 70
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Post by honeybee on Dec 16, 2012 1:54:22 GMT -6
With Katara...I swear I can't think of any of her behvaior that read romantically interested in Aang to me. Not even the dance. That was killed when she kissed him on the cheek like always, the mother goose she is. Kataang shippers get really angry when people call Katara motherly toward Aang but it's just true.Let's also talk about how young and immature this thought process is: "We kissed at the invasion and I thought we were gonna be together, but we're not." Alright...Aang is mature in some areas, but clearly not with relationships. Kissing does not = being in a relationship. That thought process is childish. Not to mention he kissed HER right before he was going to be fighting the Fire Lord. Katara most likely wrote that off as a "I may never see you again" type of kiss. And he says he thought they would be together after the kiss..then why the heck is he just NOW bringing it up? 7 episodes later? By the EIP I forgot that kiss even happened since everyone was acting like it didn't happen. lmao Ugh such fail. Oh my god, how can anyone possibly deny or ignore something that is so blatantly obvious? She's motherly with everyone, but most especially with Aang - which is why I can't stomach the idea of them being a romantic pair. "We kissed at the invasion and I thought we were gonna be together, but we're not." No, Aang, there was no "we", only you did the kissing; Katara merely stood there and let you. Out of surprise, shock, or dismay, I don't know. What we do know, however, is that she never kissed back for some reason, and not only that, she then went on to ignore the whole incident altogether. That is, until Aang forced another one on her, which caused her to act like a cornered animal looking for a way out. I cringed when I saw first saw this scene, I really did. That's another thing I dislike about this relationship; Katara seems like she doesn't have a choice in it at all. Aang wants her, and since he's the Avatar and saved the world, she just goes along with it at the end because it's the least she can do after everything he's done. That's the impression I get. It's sad that Bryke considers this a healthy relationship while Zutara, all about balance, understanding and being on an equal footing with one another, is demonized and labled as "dark". Seriously? What's dark about it? Come on, I really want to know. >:/ If they had shown Kataang as an equal partnership, yeah, I probably wouldn't have minded it so much. But it's not equal, not at all. Neither Aang nor Katara are completely honest with one another. Neither of them want to do or say anything that will upset the other one. Whenever Katara lets her frustration show, Aang puts on a hurt face and Katara rushes to apologise for losing her temper. In a relationship, you must take the bad with the good. If you're pushing back parts of yourself so the other won't think any less of you, then they don't really love you for you, but for the person they perceive you to be. And... I don't know. I'm too tired to think right now. I'll try and finish my thoughts tomorrow. XD
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 16, 2012 10:22:45 GMT -6
Hmm. Something else has just come to mind. She wasn't bothered by the declaration of 'like a brother to me' in the play, she had to be prompted on that one. You know, to get what Aang was even TALKING about. You know, I think it should be plainly obvious what he's talking about if she's actually THINKING about him romantically. Because if that were the case, SHE would also be bothered about it. But she isn't. She’s clearly, evidently not wholly averse to the idea of seeing Aang as like a little brother at this point in time. So where do you go from there? Acting more motherly and then snogging his face off in the end? LOGIC! A friend of mine – a Kataanger (one of the most respectful I know, but that goes without saying because I knew her before Avatar)- put it perfectly when she said that Katara was ‘dysfunctional’ throughout the series, which is why we get so many mixed fucking signals from her. Motherly, friendly, fierce, occasionally bashful/curious or startled/unsure, the latter mostly brought on by Aang’s forced kisses. The same with Aang. We get moments from him that are really mature, but other times, not so, and they collide with Katara’s more mature moments, especially later. And Kataangers even say themselves that Katara is essentially the ‘reincarnation’ of his past gurus’ love for him- uh hello, that screams ‘parental’ from the top of the mountains if you ask me. Couple that with the fact that Aang himself is the hope for the world who she has obviously tasked herself with looking after. Why? Because she’s been dreaming about this for so fucking long, that’s why. He’s not just any boy, he’s the fucking Avatar (and then there’s that La Pieta reference in Crossroads of Destiny. ‘Nuff said.) Also, she was amazed at seeing him on first sight because he’s an AIRBENDER. Uh, airbenders haven’t been seen for a century! Don’t tell me that was ‘love at first sight’, it was clearly amazement. Sometimes they appear to be just kids on a journey together. SOMETIMES. But that’s just not always the case, and people have to fucking understand that we can’t just see Katara as Aang’s ‘innocent young love’. It’s just not that simple. Bryke MADE it not that simple, especially by throwing Zuko and yinyang/Oma and Shu symbolism into the mix. And that’s just the beginning. Katara herself began to change, and in all honesty, it looks like she and Aang gradually ‘grew apart’ from one another in the way their personalities changed. They fiercely cared for one another but, considering the fact that they would always be travelling together as like a unit, that would be a given. But when it comes to deeper emotional needs, it takes more than 'innocent young love' to convince the viewers, I'm sorry. And honestly, the changes Zuko and Katara both undergo leave them raw and exposed to one another. They collide the most in WAT and TSR, and in between those episodes you see a new side to Katara- the sassy side, and the really angry/angsty side. Zuko pretty much identifies with BOTH of these, more so than Aang. Neither of them have really been allowed to just 'be children', having been forced to grow up early, something Katara tries not to have forced on Aang (hence.. why he's still able to act like a twelve-year-old kid). So while she gets into Aang's kiddish, frolicky side, Zuko touches on her sassier and the darker side and makes it be known that it's a part of her that needs dealing with rather than burying. He understands it in perspective of the world, and of how it affects her personally. It IS, for want of a better word, a very intimate connection. Go figure why the epic hug at the end of the mission appears so much more than just a forgiveness hug. Oooh, just spotted something veeery interesting- animeiija.deviantart.com/art/Reasons-I-like-Zutara-over-214261331
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Post by manzanasverdes on Dec 17, 2012 13:49:03 GMT -6
I've always thought it's got to do with what Jacks wrote about how Zuko brings out this very sassy and anrgy/angsty(/vengeful) side of Katara's (which would be basically the biggest critique against TSR by the naysayers) and how this a healthy relationship does not make because of course this is how they will always relate to each other ::eye roll:: whereas Aang always makes Katara want to nurture and be kind and generous and whatnot so, naturally this is better.
The thing is the underlying dynamics to those behaviors. It is one thing to want to be a better person for someone else because that someone else has shown you that you are able/worth the effort, because you naturally want to be better for them (arguably part of Zuko's motivations to help Katara in TSR, I think) and quite another to want to be A Good Person for someone else whose heart would be broken if they ever saw the dirty bits you sweep under the rug.
Zuko and Katara have seen each other at their absolute worst and have gone on to be there for the other at their greatest trial (that final Agni Kai was it for the both of them, Zuko faced his greatest antagonist in a fight for his kingdom and Katara had to deal with said antagonist AND heal Zuko without her magic water, granted Zuko was alive, but I don't remember her ever successfully undertaking a healing this massive 'unaided' by special water, I mean, remember Jet?). They've seen each other's underbellies and still hung around, there was still enough affection there for a friendship to flourish, at the very least. They helped each other heal inner wounds, and that's something that no amount of sunshine and peaceful waters will ever top. Would they fight? yes, they would, but that's because they're two people and that is something that happens between people. Would Aang and Katara fight? the message seems to be that they wouldn't (as much, at least, which is bull, because Zuko and Katara would NOT be spending their entire time at each other's throats, gosh!), but not because they are so in line with each other that disagreements wouldn't happen, it reads as though conflict would be avoided more than non-existent, either because Aang would go pacifist monk on it, or because Katara would just bend over backwards to avoid upsetting or disappointing Aang, it's what happened in The Thing That Shall Not Be Named, anyway.
So, I guess that the lack of idealization of the other present in Zutara, is detrimental in labeling it 'healthy and mature', but it is instead the very reason why they're 'too dark and intriguing' or some such.
Also, this was very rushed, so apologies if it doesn't make a lot of sense. Gotta goooo!!!!
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 17, 2012 15:57:08 GMT -6
I've always thought it's got to do with what Jacks wrote about how Zuko brings out this very sassy and anrgy/angsty(/vengeful) side of Katara's (which would be basically the biggest critique against TSR by the naysayers) and how this a healthy relationship does not make because of course this is how they will always relate to each other ::eye roll:: whereas Aang always makes Katara want to nurture and be kind and generous and whatnot so, naturally this is better. And therein lies the problem. People think that The Southern Raiders is an example of how they're going to be ALL THE TIME. And there's just no basis for such a claim. It was a very heavy time in both their lives- go figure they'd be darkness and energy all over the place! And even THAT isn't the meat of their interaction then- there was a whole lot of compromise on Zuko's part. He didn't taunt her or force her into anything. He just let her lead the way, and he followed. Aiding her. While at the same time, letting his own anger loose. People seem to forget that it calms down later on- they have a little teasing banter, they're friendly and supportive with each other. At each other's throats? HARDLY. Zuko had a go at the whole group for goofing off before Sozin's Comet, and that was IT. That wasn't even aimed at Katara herself. There's no evidence whatsoever to show that Zuko and Katara would be at each other's throats. None. Whatsoever. We're given evidence to show that Zuko actually really RESPECTS Katara. Of all the people he flipped out on earlier on in The Firebending Masters, Katara was NOT one of them. Hell, I don't think he's ever flipped out on her full stop, even before earning her forgiveness! The only time I really recall is when he threw flames at her after Iroh was burned up. Sure, Zuko brings out the sassy 'dark side' of Katara. But that's only because that's a side she hasn't really acknowledged, and it was going to come out through some other means- most likely for the worse. So once it's out and seen through, it's no longer something that makes her a ticking time bomb. She GROWS after that episode, a whole heck of a lot. Like, she has a character 'level up'. /waffle
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Post by avatarfreak14 on Jan 5, 2013 3:37:33 GMT -6
I love everything about what you just said. The problem with Bryke is that it always seems that they always give Aang what my Dad calls allowances. Basically, because he's the main character, they always let him off when he does mistakes and they'll excuse him for things that other characters had to go through or were punished for.
Kataang to me, even until this very day, hasn't processed in my mind. Clearly for the fact that it isn't believable. I ship Zutara, but I might not be so ticked off with the fact that it didn't end up canon if the real relationship had actually been developed and realistic. It just seems like such a waste of love interest.
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