nami
Non-Bender
Mad as a Hatter
Posts: 40
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Post by nami on Nov 29, 2012 12:27:51 GMT -6
Also in the episode "The Runaway", it was emphasised of Katara's motherly attitude. Toph distinctly said: "You're not my Mum, and you're not their Mum either. She said pointing to Aang and Sokka. Now, correct me if i'm wrong but if you had any romantic feelings for someone, you would never treat them like you treat your brother. I have to say, that that episode was almost like a giant flashing sign that screamed; "I THINK I'M THE MOM!" It was majorly obvious. Though, I didn't need that episode to know it. It was obvious to me from the beginning that she treated Aang and Sokka the same. that would get awkward fast! It's instinctive, I think, that Katara doesn't baby Zuko. As you said, their maturity is on the same level. Zuko doesn't need that sort of treatment, he needs friendship, kindness and understanding. That's what Katara understands after she is finally willing to see him as another hurt and lonely soul, instead of as an evil Fire bender. I think she eventually realizes that Zuko was just trying to find his way. That's just what I like to think >3 See, that's what I heard too! But apparently tons of fans totally over-looked that... I also heard they were unsure and debated. I have no solid evidence of this, so I can't really prove it. Kataang's development was definitely stunted by their indecision. I think at the beginning they really didn't think Aang would be for Katara (that's the vibe I got), and then it changed really rapidly as if they decided to battle it out and see what happened. But Katara's emotions always seem to be nothing more than a brotherly-love for Aang. It didn't come across as romantic.. not even in the tunnel.. that just sort've made me go; "That was unexpected.." Zuko and Katara always seemed the most romantic thing. It stuck out to me and it was obvious to my eyes they would make a great couple. That was before I became an obsessed Zutarian.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 30, 2012 14:21:21 GMT -6
I think the MAJOR problem with Kataang is the little 'hints' or 'signs' towards a possible 'attraction to Aang' that Bryke crowbarred in could easily be confused with something else. E.g, when she was giving that 'seductive look' in the Headband. I thought she was just really getting into the dance routine to be honest- I didn't think it had anything to do with Aang himself. It didn't give me OH SHE'S SO SMITTEN WITH HIM feels. It just felt like 'wow this is fun' and, for a while, she enjoyed playing the role. As for fiddling with her hair, that's something a lot of people do in all sorts of situations, never mind romantic. Besides which, she fiddled with it when ZUKO sat down next to her, while Aang was essentially being cockblocked.
Oh, and a lot of crap seems to come back to the Fortuneteller. Here, we learn that 'destiny' and 'fate' can be mutually exclusive. You're not tied to the one thing that the fortunes tell you. Yet for some reason, the fortune that Katara is told is supposed to be taken seriously. Uh, excuse me? Didn't we just establish that fortune telling is a load of old crock when Wu failed to determine the volcano's imminent eruption that almost got everyone killed? LOGIC.
When you get down to it, Zutara seems to fit the message of that particular episode more than Kataang. Firstly, you're not tied to destiny, destiny is -ultimately- in your hands, while the things that happen outside of your control are pretty fucking random. Zuko becomes a powerful bender and a great ally later, which ties in with that point- the point that he himself was in charge once he knew the ropes. He essentially broke free of what was his original destiny, didn't he? And Katara changes a lot, too. She becomes an amazing bender herself. The whole 'powerful bender thing being significant' is a load of bollocks when you get to the last book. The benders of the Gaang ALL BECOME POWERFUL BENDERS. ALL OF THEM. NO EXCEPTIONS. Secondly, this very message seems to reflect the paralells between TCoTL and CoD, or rather, the 'intimate' cave situation with important character interaction. The former was a forced 'fated' thing, whereas the latter was simply happenstance. The thing is, the Zutara dynamic just 'happened' when the two collided. Which is something that is as true to life as you can get. Again- destiny being a funny thing, unexpected things happening. It's not something you're supposed to know about ahead of time. And while Katara didn't balk at the idea of kissing Aang in TCoTL, and was rather uh, curious, you cannot remove the fact that this was also a necessity for escape. A RIDICULOUS necessity, but a necessity nonetheless. IF perchance it didn't have the whole legend thing tied to it, it would have held a lot more weight. But as it was, it just seemed awkward and forced onto her. If she was really enamoured with him after that, I'd think that the kissing wouldn't just stop after you know, getting out of the cave where they HAD to be kissing. But since it DID stop, and the only kisses Aang got in the future were cheek kisses, I don't buy this as 'Katara seeing Aang in a whole new light'. Disappointing, really, that they have to use awkward symbolism like this to make their point.
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Post by manzanasverdes on Nov 30, 2012 18:08:47 GMT -6
^^^^ this (what dynamojacks wrote). Also, something that gets me about Aunt Wu's episode is how it, basically, forces Katara into considering Aang romantically. She hadn't thought of Aang in that way until Sokka mentioned how he was 'a powerful bender', it isn't until then that Katara gets this look on her face like, realization has stricken and light has been seen. But that is in no way conclusive once you take into consideration how it doesn't get brought up again in any shape or form. At least not on her end. And Katara is flirty as hell, so I still don't get that.
Also, hahah, TCoTL is such a joke. I seriously never thought that legend was supposed to relate to Kataang at all, I just thought it was simply explaining why the cave was named such, teh badgermoles, and why they might, maybe, possibly need to kiss to find their way out. And even after all that, we can't really be sure they actually kissed, can we? It doesn't seem like Aang would have let it lie if they had, I mean, take that kiss before the invasion and how he brings it up again when given the chance... I don't really think they kissed in the cave at all.
Katara did, however, touch Zuko's face in a completely unnecessary way. Just sayin'. And wtf, why did they have to be imprisoned in a cave? with glowing green crystals? where they bond in a very emotionally charged manner? And where we are treated to Katara's face-touching (caressing, that hand moved. And touched his lips, ffs) and Zuko's acceptance of such, with closed eyes and everything? I mean, if you were only reminding the audience of Katara's Super Special Healing Water (which she didn't use on, say, Jet, but was willing to use on this dude she's only ever gotten grief from) and letting Zuko know of its existence so he can go and bury himself deeper in poor judgement, then ALL THAT FACE TOUCHING WAS NOT NECESSARY. Not to mention, if the only one knowing about that water's properties was Zuko, then why would Azula even doubt Aang's death? Seems like they went to a lot of trouble to set things up this way. When you look at it from a Doylist POV it's crazy contrived. Because, apparently, we weren't supposed to ship Zutara, or some other silly notion like that. Pfft.
It's been a while since I've watched either of these eps, though. Am I missing something?
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Post by kisho101 on Dec 2, 2012 18:00:09 GMT -6
I never truly liked Kataang. Katara changed throughout the series. Yes she did like to have fun, but she was also mature in a sense whereas Aang was still trying to have fun( and I would have to say that I understand since he was frozen in an iceberg for a hundred years) he never really got to live his childhood to the fullest, especially since he was told he was the Avatar. Zuko, however, has a subtle humorous side to him that just needs to be drawn out. He needs to be comfortable around the group of people in order to start being all sassy and comical, although he doesn't overdo it or demand everyone's attention. I see him and Katara backsassying each other and cracking wise jokes together. Also, the rushed kisses. These did nothing for me. They actually left me kind of embarrassed....for Aang. Katara never truly responds to his kisses and she always tries to brush him off and tell him that now isn't the right time. The kiss at the end, mind you, just felt so rushed and I felt really awkward watching them practically suck face. I was fine with the hug but it went downhill form there. I don't think that Katara would have truly minded having a boyfriend during the war(she was smitten with Jet), it's that she was debating on her feelings about Aang and whether they were motherly or brotherly...or partnerly. Also, I had always gotten the notion that the Avatar was supposed to be free of earthly attachments, yet Avatar Kyoshi tells Aang(I believe it was Kyoshi) that he still has to be attached because he has to keep balance on the earth. Then when Avatar Roku is giving Aang a tour through his life in Avatar and Firelord, he tells him that being the Avatar helps with getting the ladies. I didn't think that just becaus he was the Avatar, he should be able to get whoever he wanted... just because. Which leads me to feel that Katara was just placating Aang because she knew that he really liked her. I think that Aang really couldn't have known what love was yet. He was barely 12 to 13 years old. I don't really believe that it was love at first sight, Katara was just the first girl he had seen in who knows how long. Katara's jealous moments were random to me. She had shown no interest romantically in Aang, yet she shows a slight jealous side of "oh if that's what you like" when Aang and On Ji are dancing. This again feels rushed and out of place. Overall, Aang and Katara could have had a 'sweet and cute' kind of love if it had been developed better, but alas it wasn't in my opinion. Zutara has that passionate, ardent, full blown love that just worked with me. I don't even remember when I started shipping Zutara, but it just clicked. The trials and tribulations they would face would only further enhance their relationship I think, while in Kataang, Aang tries to please Katara to the best of his abilites and Katara tries her best not to hurt Aang's feelings. This is not the way to go in a relationship. There needs to be a mutual understanding and communication in a relationship in order for it to work out and Zutara has that. They have achieved a level of trust I believe that they are okay with telling each other things and even making the other mad, but they work it out and I think that really makes it a nice and strong real-ationship. Pshhhh...RantyMcRambly Pants!
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 12, 2012 17:45:56 GMT -6
I'd also like to make a point about something.. just in case it hasn't already been made.. *attached* Attachments:
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Post by emletish on Dec 12, 2012 18:00:55 GMT -6
*Gigglesnort*
That was great - and quite true! I always just assumed that Katara used the "we're in the middle of a war" thing as a way of putting Aang off gently.
It just seems like she is trying to let him down gently in that scene. I thought it was actually the death knell of Kataang (silly me and my logic for thinking a girl not being interested romantically was an obstacle to romance).
Bless the Kataanger's cotton socks - how do they manage to fanwank that awkward balcony scene into something romantic?
how is this done?
what kind of sorcery is this?
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 12, 2012 18:07:08 GMT -6
LOL^^ That made me laugh. I have to admit, it's interesting that Katara is so reluctant to get into a relationship with Aang. It does suggest she was very uncertain. Yup, and she even voiced that uncertainty. What are you supposed to get from that scene? That we don't know if she wants to be with Aang or not full stop. We even got that from the kiss at the invasion. So even given that Kataango, she doesn't actually display romantic desires for him on the whole. Yet Sokka and Suki are all over each other. Uh. Storytelling flub much? It's kind of a big deal if Katara makes an excuse like that when there's fucking SOKKA AND SUKI. Seriously. Zuko's behaviour was totally dubious, too. Actor Mai shows up and he doesn't even react, even reflect on her. What's the deal with that? Isn't he supposed to be guilty for having left her in jail? OOPS. He looked pretty downcast alongside Katara, when watching the scene where she declares Aang as a brother. It's impossible to read his thoughts, so what are you supposed to get from them? Is he confused as well? What IS the deal with Zuko in EIP? Also may I just: *attached* Don't say we didn't see you doing that Katara.It's not so clear where she's looking now, whether she's just spacing out or not, but considering how Toph's aligned, I highly doubt she's looking straight at Aang. Yeah, so much for that attraction thing.. Attachments:
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 13, 2012 17:22:16 GMT -6
So.. storytelling wise...
They should have at least addressed the fact that he ran away from the Guru who was telling him he would lose the Avatar State altogether. Like, did it even occur to them at all that the reason he went to get control of the AS in the first place was to protect those he loved- KATARA? I know he’s young, but this wasn’t just a spur-of-the-moment thing, he went off on a mission, to find the Guru with a serious purpose, to follow this shit through for everyone’s safety and he didn’t. He didn’t just fail, he ran away. He RAN. AWAY. And the story means to tell us that Katara never took issue with the fact he did this and had the AS blocked because of her? Wasn’t SHE the one pushing the idea for him to get the AS controlled anyway? Talk about a complete waste of their valuable time.
I’d get this ship a whole lot more if he was able to make the sacrifice for Katara’s sake (not to mention everyone else’s), and detach himself. Because that would have been, you know, romantic. Which is ironic considering his detachment would likely mean no romantic dealings with Katara. What a shame. That’s not supposed to be the POINT of the story though is it?
At the very least, if it WAS the point of the story, I’d like to have seen the story get this stuff out in the open and deal with it, not just brush it under the carpet, and have it accepted, let alone EXCUSED. And not just offhand hints to Katara’s attraction towards him that can be easily misconstrued as something else, either. Something that really tests Aang and Katara’s relationship, and if it survives, that is great development. It means they’ve taken leaps and bounds over the obstacles that stopped them from meeting halfway. Did they really meet halfway over this stuff at all? Did Katara even know Aang was struggling with the AS because he couldn’t get over his crush of her? Uh, isn’t this shit that they should be discussing if they are, in fact, enamoured with one another? Wouldn’t them going through this really develop what would eventually be their plutonic relationship?
Heaven forbid we should ask these questions of the script when they don't give us any clear fucking answers!
Yeah I get it. Aang’s been through a lot, a whole lot. But that doesn’t mean he should be excused of the mistakes that cause trouble for everyone else. Zuko sure as hell isn’t -oh, he gets a death threat from Katara, that’s as far removed from ‘excused’ as you can get! And he really DOES fucking repent, double time. So he gives the impression he’s able to compromise for Katara a hell of a lot more than Aang is. Naturally, you would assume that that would make him a better fit for Katara- you know, after all the upheaval to do with his redemption is done and through! Isn't this what that 'building a bridge to be together' symbolises? OH SNAP.
Sorry storytellers. That was the curveball you. threw. Sorry I’m too 'deluded' to see otherwise.
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Post by mrspettyfer on Dec 15, 2012 2:10:37 GMT -6
To me this was Aang's biggest flaw that he needed to overcome and he never does. I was so disappointed when he goes off before the comet, essentially running away from the problem AGAIN. Even Katara tries to tell him not to walk away from the issue, but he still does. And of course he gets the easy way out with the lion turtle. lmao
I think him running away from the Guru was supposed to be romantic, but with so much on the line it just came across as a really, really stupid move for Aang. He needs the Avatar State more than he needs Katara, no matter what his little 12 year old heart might think. There are bigger things than his personal wants and I don't think he grasped that.
I laughed so hard at your picture with Sukka haha. It's true though. Katara was looking for an excuse because she probably hadn't thought about Aang much romantically and it caught her off guard.
I just had such a huge problem with the fact that they want us to go from that scene to Katara kissing Aang. A girl just doesn't go from confused to ZOMG Imma kiss you now without some inner debating and thinking. We don't see any of that. We don't even see Katara treating Aang as more than a brother. I think they should have either dropped that romance or developed it equally.
At 12 years old and supposed to be saving the world, I would have preferred Aang to have no love interest.
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 15, 2012 10:46:05 GMT -6
Yup. I mean I could understand running away from the whole being the Avatar thing to begin with. That’s the first real shock he gets, and I really can’t blame him. I mean, fuck, he's a twelve year old! It’s his burden later, sure, but I don’t think he should be blamed for it. He faced up to that shit in The Storm, blamed himself for ‘turning his back on the world’. And it’s horrible because he was just a young kid being forced with this title he wasn’t expecting. I don’t think any 12 year old, even one born into great wisdom, should have the expectations made of them like Aang did. But here.. it’s a long time after he’s come to terms with that. This thing here, running from the Guru, was DEFINITELY his fault and if he had any sense at all, he wouldn’t have turned tail and bolted after going through so much guilt in The Storm for having done the same before. Why did he go BACKWARDS all of a sudden? He should have faced up to that later, if he had to face up to running away from being the Avatar. No, the genocide wasn’t his fault. But THIS fucking was, and he should have had that in his face. I don’t believe for a minute he wasn’t able to comprehend the error of putting his wants above the best interests of his friends. Romantic attachment to Katara does NOTHING for the rest of the team, and only seems to bring out the worst in Aang. UGH. As far as Katara's concerned.. I know people are gonna say ‘WELL SHE OBVIOUSLY DISPLAYED ATTRACTION TOWARDS AANG *INSERT IMAGES/EVIDENCES HERE*’ Uh, displaying offhand ‘moments of attraction’ is a whole different kettle of fish to actually clearly having romantic thoughts ABOUT THEM. Reacting ‘to them’ in a dance setting/being jealous of not being danced with is one thing. Reacting to the words of a song in the context of a love song is one thing. But then being visibly very unsure about romantic feelings AFTER all these signs and signals, you know, kind of defeats them. And then if you please, the whole EIP scene in general. She’s obviously uncomfortable with the idea of being romantically involved with Aang, because she actually voices her confusion about it, something she hasn’t done before. This is AGES after the dance in the Headband where she’s supposedly ‘eye fucking him’ like she wants him oh so so bad. And considering Sokka and Suki have already been going out for some TIME now (even having gone all the way a la Southern Raiders), you know, one assumes that she doesn’t want to be involved with Aang full stop. BECAUSE. After EIP, there are no signs whatsoever pointing towards Aang romantically or even ATTRACTION wise. WORSE STILL, she even goes back to acting MORE motherly than she did before. Such as: ‘Who wants a nice cool glass of watermelon juice?’ And then Aang in FULL KID MODE goes ‘OH OH MEE MEE’ Uh, I’m sorry. Ream us out for suggesting that she acts motherly at all, and then we have this? How about accept the criticisms for some very inconsistent fucking storytelling? If the signs we were supposed to see earlier wind up being shot down as heavily as they did, then WHAT was the point of them to begin with? There would have been some nice progression, but no. As MrsPettyfer said, we end up back at square one- we don’t have a damn clue what Katara’s supposed to be thinking or feeling. That’s not good if the romance is supposed to drive the main fucking story.
Guuuhhhh. The fact that they parallel Zuko and Aang's stories- comparing them- is dubious enough. It just makes the faults stand out like a sore thumb. Zuko turns out to face all his demons, mistakes, all of that balls. And he repents for them like nobodies business- that's what the latter part of book 3 shows us. Yet Aang somehow can never comprehend the mess of beans he got himself into by having the AS blocked in the first place, and the reason for why he did doesn't even concern him in the slightest. What. I'm pretty sure he's capable of understanding things in some perspective, so why not? If he's so wise to be playing the 'parent role' (as Bryke seemed to put it in the commentary) in TSR, then what's the deal with not understanding the Guru's wisdom enough to follow through with it when he came UP with that in the first place? You know, when he was letting go of his grief a la one of the chakras? Couldn't he understand that letting go of attachments for the sake of the world isn't too far from the importance of letting go of bitterness and grief? If Zuko can face his mistakes, so can Aang. He's not getting away just because he's the 'good one'.
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