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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 16, 2012 16:56:50 GMT -6
I agree with you guys completely. You know I think if they had handled Kataang like they did Tokka--a subtle crush that could lead to more down the road, but not big enough to make a plotline from it--I wouldn't have felt so icky about it. But they really did TRY to turn it into this big, epic forever world changing love. And it just wasn't believable. First of all, they are children. Aang is 12. I don't care what people say, I cannot take a 12 year old seriously in the romantic department. Even more, Aang acted like he was 12 when it came to the romance. Sure he can act wise in some areas of his life, but romance was not one of them.
I think Katara felt more like a trophy because we never saw her feelings. It wasn't so much that the hero got the girl..it's that the hero got the girl who had mixed feelings and never expressed them fully so we don't even know how she feels about it. It DOES come across as her being a trophy. With LoK for example, with Korra and Mako, at least we knew Mako wanted to be with her as much as she did him by the end. With Katara, it was NEVER clear.
And you know boogum, Aang hardly ever stands up to Katara either. That's another reason I don't like them together--neither of them stand up to one another. Katara never wants to do anything that might hurt Aang's feelings, and Aang is practically obsessed with her that she has to be about to kill someone before he argues with her. Again, why I like Taang and Zutara so much is that both of these ships feel more balanced because they aren't afraid to disagree with eachother.
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Post by heirofseaandfire on Nov 16, 2012 17:39:26 GMT -6
Awhile ago we were talking about the Bryke's poorly chosen parallels with regards to The Cave of Two Lovers/The Crossroads of Destiny and how they actually worked better for Zutara.
Well, some of their imagery isn't very flattering for Kataang either, I don't think. When Aang is struck by lightning in The Crossroads of Destiny and Katara catches him, there's that moment where she's holding him in her arms with a heartbreaking look of sadness on her face. Now look at the sculpture La Pieta. Similar right?
La Pieta is a sculpture of the Virgin Mary holding Jesus after he is brought down off the cross. While this is beautiful symbolism- Jesus and Aang both being saviors of the world in different stories- it also naturally leads to a comparison of the Virgin Mary and Katara. And the Virgin Mary was Jesus' mother, and Katara effectively acts as a mother to Aang.
While it demonstrates love, it doesn't really scream romance.
(You can find both pictures on the Avatar wiki page for The Crossroads of Destiny).
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 16, 2012 19:47:23 GMT -6
I agree with you guys completely. You know I think if they had handled Kataang like they did Tokka--a subtle crush that could lead to more down the road, but not big enough to make a plotline from it--I wouldn't have felt so icky about it. But they really did TRY to turn it into this big, epic forever world changing love. And it just wasn't believable. First of all, they are children. Aang is 12. I don't care what people say, I cannot take a 12 year old seriously in the romantic department. Even more, Aang acted like he was 12 when it came to the romance. Sure he can act wise in some areas of his life, but romance was not one of them. I think Katara felt more like a trophy because we never saw her feelings. It wasn't so much that the hero got the girl..it's that the hero got the girl who had mixed feelings and never expressed them fully so we don't even know how she feels about it. It DOES come across as her being a trophy. With LoK for example, with Korra and Mako, at least we knew Mako wanted to be with her as much as she did him by the end. With Katara, it was NEVER clear. And you know boogum, Aang hardly ever stands up to Katara either. That's another reason I don't like them together--neither of them stand up to one another. Katara never wants to do anything that might hurt Aang's feelings, and Aang is practically obsessed with her that she has to be about to kill someone before he argues with her. Again, why I like Taang and Zutara so much is that both of these ships feel more balanced because they aren't afraid to disagree with eachother. Now the bolded, especially I think this is why a lot of people get behind Tokka. It's like what Kataang SHOULD have been. Toph isn't the kind to depend on Sokka like some father figure or something. And she doesn't make him the centre of her world. Yet people ship them quite passionately, because they don't shove it in your face. It's just nice, in-the-background sort of development that helps compliment them as a whole. The same can be said with Taang, even if Toph doesn't have an obvious crush on Aang, there's still lots to work with. They don't need to rely on skewed symbolism and forced situations to validate their connections. Their characters do that by themselves. Is that really so much to ask of canon romances? Yeish.
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 16, 2012 21:43:37 GMT -6
I actually really liked Mako and Korra...lol. I thought it was leaps and bounds better than Kataang and Maiko in the sense that it had what those ships lacked. I thought Sukka was probably ATLA's best written ship.
I agree. And you know, I mostly feel like that because of their ages. If Aang had been 17+ then I wouldn't mind them going down a more "epic love" route. It's just at 12 I can't take it seriously. [And you know, not showing Katara's side doesn't help lol] Toph's crush came across realistic for her age. Though I feel bad for Tokka shippers because they got zero closure at all.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 17, 2012 10:28:45 GMT -6
Ah tits, I should probably rephrase that. I mean when it comes to the 'main' ones in Atla. Sukka was nicer because it took something of a backseat- it's probably because it didn't fall victim to any of their 'all-powerful' romance tropes like with Maiko or Kataang. I wasn't even thinking of LoK lol (never got NEARLY as invested as I did with Atla), though honestly I wasn't too keen on any of the romance to begin with when I first watched. Now, I'm still pretty much on the fence- I'd probably consider myself a multishipper for LoK.
Yeah, when I watched Avatar? I seriously didn't even EXPECT there to be an 'epic kiss' at the end. The way the series plays out.. it doesn't really scream 'epic romance' anyway. Nothing they really did amounted to that in the end and it came as a bit of a surprise, especially when KATARA was the one who leaned in and kissed him. It was actually kind of embarrassing to watch the kiss- I didn't expect to be squicked out at the end of this series.. I thought the hug was going to be enough, honestly. It's just like before when Katara was saying how proud she was of him and how much he'd grown. And that should have been enough. Somebody else here said it best when Aang and the crew looking over the city/water/whatever, posing all triumphant-like, would have sealed the deal even better. Or hell, a little speech at the end from the Gaang. Or something LIKE that. It didn't have to end with Aang getting his 'forever girl big kiss' because that wasn't even the point of the story to begin with, let alone made plausible enough given not only his age but his development alongside Katara as an equal.
All of that. Though Toph strikes me as more mature than Aang so it would probably work with her and Sokka even not 'too long down the road' (though that mostly depends on Suki obviously- I don't really see her going anywhere but it sucks that she wasn't considered important enough to put in the Gaang photo :C). Ugh, Bryke continues to do their trollin' thing with Lin's father being a complete unknown. AND Suki being out of the picture altogether in the Gaang reunion picture. Just, holy hell you guys.. I wonder if they're inciting the Sukka/Tokka hatred too. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
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1foxylady
Non-Bender
Shippers gon' Ship
Posts: 20
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Post by 1foxylady on Nov 19, 2012 4:17:11 GMT -6
I started out as a Kataang shipper. I went along with canon for the entire time I was watching the series, and I honestly thought Kataang was cute up until the end. I was even a shipper for a little while after. But when I discovered Zutara, the pairing felt a lot more alive? If that makes any sense.
When I think of kataang I think of cute, awkward adorable romance. Which is cute, but its not passionate. Which is what Zutara is. Its a mature, passionate, sexual type of relationship. And yes, there's no arguing that Zutara can be cute, and awkward too, but in the end it can be so much more that Kataang ca be for me. There's something about Aang that I cant see him as a sexual person.
Aang's the kind of person who's spiritual, and calm and intelligent. None of which will immediately lead people to think he's in it for his own pleasure, which is what Guru Pathik was saying, to an extent in The Guru. Where as Zuko is angry and angsty and attractive. I for one enjoy a passionate kind of relationship. Thus Zutara is my queen ship. That is not to say that I dont like Kataang, because I do think its all those things I mentioned above, its just not my first choice.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 19, 2012 6:32:20 GMT -6
Honestly? When I look back at it, at least really early on, I do see some naiive kid-qualities still IN Katara. It's just the when she matures in the course of the series, it's like.. she overpowers Aang. She's already in her teens, and she already takes on an adult role, whereas Aang is only just entering his teens. Maybe that's why people can't separate the 'mother' from her when compared to Aang, especially in the latter part of s3 and especially with Zuko as his sifu I mean really his TEACHER.
I get that Aang's kid-ish-ness is supposed to help her loosen up, but what I don't get is when people use that against Zuko's, uh, 'broodishness'. Zuko's a serious guy, but he's also got some sass to him- yeah, he HAS a sense of humour. It's just that it's not quite as obvious with him, so you have to tease it out with art/fic. But it IS there. Plus Zuko seems to bring out the more 'mature fun' side of Katara without even trying- all that tension and sass. I bet they could sass with each other as well as they could spar with each other. And hell, Zuko's a hell of a (break) dancer. He's got more 'moves' than people think..! Even if he's not exactly smooth with them hahaha
Okay not sure what I'm trying to say there. After reading some things on Kataang, I get what they were going for. It just didn't hit the right notes because things felt so conflicting in the way they displayed it. Plus, Katara's at like this mid-point when it comes to her age and growth, so I guess you either lean one way or the other depending on how you see her, as I mentioned before.
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nami
Non-Bender
Mad as a Hatter
Posts: 40
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Post by nami on Nov 19, 2012 9:03:28 GMT -6
Aww. You should never feel like a dork for wanting to express your opinions, even if you feel what you're saying has already been said. After all, you may have a different way of expressing that opinion that someone else didn't use, thus enabling a reader to understand the meaning when the previous way the opinion was stated by someone else didn't register completely. =D I agree that if Katara had shown more romantic feelings toward Aang, it would have been more believable. The only times we ever see this is during "The Headband" when Aang and On Ji (now that's an Aang pairing behind which I can get!) are dancing. Sokka says, "They look good out there." and, as if jealous, Katara, with feigned nonchalance, says, "Yeah. If that's what you like." The only other time is at the end when she kisses him. All of the other times, she looks embarrassed or is upset or completely ignores his advances. With Zuko, once she accepted him, while there was no obvious romance between either of them, I am definitely sure that had one expressed feelings, the other would have at least acknowledged them maturely. :3 I feel the same way, but I still felt like a dork. Hahaha! Exactly. It just didn't feel right, she always seemed to be brushing him off. Me too! If they had been a real couple, I'm quite certain that Katara would have fallen for Zuko, no doubt. I agree with you guys completely. You know I think if they had handled Kataang like they did Tokka--a subtle crush that could lead to more down the road, but not big enough to make a plotline from it--I wouldn't have felt so icky about it. But they really did TRY to turn it into this big, epic forever world changing love. And it just wasn't believable. First of all, they are children. Aang is 12. I don't care what people say, I cannot take a 12 year old seriously in the romantic department. Even more, Aang acted like he was 12 when it came to the romance. Sure he can act wise in some areas of his life, but romance was not one of them. I think Katara felt more like a trophy because we never saw her feelings. It wasn't so much that the hero got the girl..it's that the hero got the girl who had mixed feelings and never expressed them fully so we don't even know how she feels about it. It DOES come across as her being a trophy. With LoK for example, with Korra and Mako, at least we knew Mako wanted to be with her as much as she did him by the end. With Katara, it was NEVER clear. And you know boogum, Aang hardly ever stands up to Katara either. That's another reason I don't like them together--neither of them stand up to one another. Katara never wants to do anything that might hurt Aang's feelings, and Aang is practically obsessed with her that she has to be about to kill someone before he argues with her. Again, why I like Taang and Zutara so much is that both of these ships feel more balanced because they aren't afraid to disagree with eachother. All of this! Exactly how I feel. Nothing about Kataang was ever very clear, and yet Zutara seemed very clear to me, even before I was a heavy shipper. Too bad it wasn't made by a Japanese or Korean person, they know how romance works. I thought of that symbolism as well (the sculpture and how it reflects Jesus and Mary). The symbolism for Kataang is all messed up. It's like they couldn't decide what route they wanted to take, so they just did this big mixing pot of signs and images, and anyone who knows a thing about analysing texts is just sitting there with this big question mark above their head and thinking 'what the hell?'. Are they destined or not? Is it a mother/son thing or not? Zuko and Katara, as far as I can recall, have a much more unified collection of symbols, because it's always about opposites coming together to form balance. You know, I agree with this. I used to listen to Greenifyme's podcast, and when they went to conventions (which are nearly never recorded) they did tell one of her friends when he thanked them for Kataang, that they weren't really sure how it was going to go. In the beginning, I think they were undecided entirely. I got cussed out by a Kataanger once for bringing that up. Oh well, I can't help the they said at conventions... excuse me. Now the bolded, especially I think this is why a lot of people get behind Tokka. It's like what Kataang SHOULD have been. Toph isn't the kind to depend on Sokka like some father figure or something. And she doesn't make him the centre of her world. Yet people ship them quite passionately, because they don't shove it in your face. It's just nice, in-the-background sort of development that helps compliment them as a whole. The same can be said with Taang, even if Toph doesn't have an obvious crush on Aang, there's still lots to work with. They don't need to rely on skewed symbolism and forced situations to validate their connections. Their characters do that by themselves. Is that really so much to ask of canon romances? Yeish. Agreed! I found Taang to be very much like Zutara, a connection of opposites. Bringing together the two elements that balanced each other. Water and Fire balance, and Earth and Air. How obvious is that? And then you would have Sokka and Suki and the whole Gaang would have been perfect. I think that only Bryke makes canon romances like that. With LoK, I am a mulit-shipper, I refused to get invested in ONE single pairing. It's so much easier to not become emotionally invested, and to just enjoy the show for what it is. I watch the show for Korra, because she's awesome. I think this is what it comes down to for a lot of people. I like Kataang enough, but I know I would like them so much more if Aang had just been closer to her age. Regardless of whether the age difference between Zuko and Katara and Aang and Katara is the same, the fact is that Aang isn't even a teenager yet. That is why I will always squick when they have their epic kiss at the end, because all I'm thinking is 'omg, she looks like she is kissing a little kid. Literally." And you're right that the way she matures throughout the show really overpowers Aang. So yeah, it is difficult to separate those mother/son or sibling vibes, because the way the characters are constructed and interact with one another actually does push the idea. I would have liked Kataang much better if he had been older too! I mean, 17+ He would have been fine! And that would have been cool and I would have shipped Zutara and Kataang. But from the very beginning you just get the feel that this show isn't for a serious thing, it was fun and exciting. The action parts were fantastic! I find the creators to still be a bit immature. Probably that goes hand-in-hand with the way the show ended.. (not just the pairings, but all of the ending! WTHECK!?) *cough* But, that aside.. it grossed me out when Katara and Aang kissed. I had to look away.. Ahaha!
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 26, 2012 17:07:46 GMT -6
Bringing a quote from the Maiko thread because more relevant to Kataang.
Now this is something that gets the other side riled up, so I need to address this in a bit more detail. It's not that Aang himself isn't mature to a point. It's that he comes from a completely different time, AND he's had to rely on monk's teachings to apply things in the real world as opposed to real world experience. This is what really shoots him in the foot in The Southern Raiders. He is unable to understand from the perspective of those who have lived in this particular situation or, for that matter, those who've actually DEALT with morally ambiguous things before (explosion against the sandbenders aside.. that doesn't really count because it was against his control and not a decision to make).
Sometimes you have to look at the morally grey, the 'dark' side, and weigh the consequences based on your perspective of the world. And who knows this better than Zuko?
Katara is only just coming out of her shell when it comes to things like these. So far, she hasn't found a way to deal directly with her own pain. She's helped Aang deal with his, when he was retreating into himself. But when it comes to her idealistic view of the world, it's pretty much hurt her until now. Zuko brings the 'other side' to the table, and he TOO is idealist. He's all about people paying their dues as he's had to pay his. He's all about the war coming to an end but also for the people- HIS people- suffering for what they did. If it needs to happen, so be it. I really hate how they made it so 'black and white' in TSR.. seriously. Considering they were at war for a century :/ That is what Aang cannot understand from his perspective too. Sure, he FORGIVES Zuko, but he's unable to see the process through which Zuko has EARNED forgiveness, because he hasn't gone through that himself. So to Zuko, simply giving forgiveness is out of the question altogether. 'That's the same as doing nothing', essentially. Zuko has a practical perspective of the world from a completely different position, which is something that can shape Katara's own views, and hers in turn shape Zuko's own. Aang on the other hand, lacks real world experience.
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Post by avatarfreak14 on Nov 29, 2012 0:50:27 GMT -6
The Kataang kiss at the end of the series has always seemed so forced to me.
Aang was always absolutely smitten with Katara. In season three there were a few declarations of his feelings. It wasn't nearly as romantic on Katara's part. With the First kiss before the invasion, she looked away and didn't really respond. To this day it's really unclear what that look she had meant, but it sure wasn't enthusiastic and if she had reciprocated his feelings, she would have given a clear sign.
In the Ember Island Players, she pulled away from his kiss and snapped at him. Another sign that she didn't harbour any romantic feelings for him. Also in the episode "The Runaway", it was emphasised of Katara's motherly attitude. Toph distinctly said: "You're not my Mum, and you're not their Mum either. She said pointing to Aang and Sokka. Now, correct me if i'm wrong but if you had any romantic feelings for someone, you would never treat them like you treat your brother.
With Zuko their was no motherlyness from Katara. I know a lot of people might say that he just joined the GAang but so did Toph. Toph barely joined the gAang when Katara started acting like her parent. The reason Katara didn't treat Zuko the same as the others because he had the same level of maturity as her. Which, to me, also made them compatible. Due to the war, both Zuko and Katara experienced things that negatively affected and traumatised them. It would be very strange if Katara babied Zuko.
Anyway, when the Kataang Kiss did happen, it was mighty random. It was said that Bryke were still debating on whether to end the show with Kataang or Zutara even at this point and this was why there was such a lack of Kataang towards the end especially. Zutara was also the original ship. I think Bryke was leaning towards Zutara at the end because of how majority of the fans are Zutarians (us), but they changed their minds because they personally preffered Katanng. Because of this lack of decision, it made the Kataang ending come out as completely rushed and disappointing.
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