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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 6:06:21 GMT -6
First off, the tale of the two lovers is that, (according to Chong), "two lovers, forbidden from one another, a war divides their people." This does not sound like a parallel for Aang and Katara at all. In fact, it is a much more fitting possible parallel for Zuko and Katara. Add that to the fact that The Cave of Two Lovers appeared at the beginning of season 2 and The Crossroads of Destiny was the season finale. And in The Crossroads of Destiny, we find Zuko and Katara thrown into a cave together also with glowing crystals and developing an understanding of each other. Relating to one another. Talking about lost mothers. Destiny. Touching scars no one is allowed to touch and offering healing via magic spirit waterSeriously, Bryke? Were you even paying attention to the metaphors you were creating? For a Kataang endgame... you have chosen... poorly. Oh this this THIS. And ESPECIALLY that bit about the 'war dividing their people'. It seems to suggest they were going for the Romeo and Juliet angle with Oma and Shu. So naturally you'd assume that by 'divided by war' it would be that Oma and Shu come from opposite sides.Just... if they paid any attention to the wording at all, they might not have made such an epic slip. And THEN you have the Crossroads of Destiny where this actually happens- two people from opposite sides are thrown together, and find some sort of harmony in each other. BRYKE YOU TROLLS. THIS HAS TO BE DELIBERATESlightly different note. One of the concerns towards the Zutara pairing is that Katara is so 'oversexualised' for just being 14. Thoughts on that? Personally whenever I see her in the show I barely even think of her as a young teen. It's mostly down to how grown-up she always appears (what with being the mum figure, for starters). As for being a super awkward 'naiive' romantic.. not really. Certainly no more awkward than Zuko as far as I can see. I think she has a much better idea than Zuko as to how to 'lead', in that regard, how things should be done. The only thing she's lacking is practical experience. Now ZUKO on the other hand, he er, seems to have had physical experience with Mai so that means he's ahead of the game, even if he's still awkward as shit xD;I gather that people either swing Kataang side or Zutara side mostly on how they see Katara. If they see Katara as a more innocent 'young love', then Kataang. If they see her as more feisty under the surface, then Zutara. At least, that's my angle. Evidently, Zuko brings OUT this feisty side in Katara which you probably wouldn't see if you were fixated on Aang's interactions with her. Oh and can I just quote this from another thread- Wily smirking warrior princess... Love that. Now this I think, this is the key to getting the whole 'Katara isn't portrayed as sweet and innocent as you think' in the show.
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 14, 2012 10:12:12 GMT -6
I think I agree with you about people mostly shipping Kataang or Zutara based on how they view Katara. I've said it before on Tumblr in my Comparisons post, but I've always thought that Zuko could potentially be the best thing that ever happens to her. I feel like Aang would stifle parts of her that are wonderful and should be expressed while Zuko would enable her to be freer with who she truly is. Also, while I think the maturity levels of Aang and Katara were relatively on par in Book One: Water, I don't think they ever were after that. Her maturity levels seemed to skyrocket well ahead of his the longer they traveled together without adults because it seemed she took a bigger and bigger role in taking care of the gaang like a mother would her children. I understand that Aang always had the weight of the world on his shoulders, but that never truly hurt his child-like nature whereas the weight Katara bore enabled her journey from girlhood to womanhood. Aang matured a bit, yes, because all of the characters had beautiful development that I have rarely, if ever, seen in a children's show, but he matured at a much slower pace. I think Katara and Zuko were better suited for their levels of maturity and where they were in their lives.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 11:16:03 GMT -6
That was an excellent post. I like how you addressed the fact that while Zuko TRIGGERED the other side of Katara's personality, it was already there and wasn't just 'manifested by Zuko'. And that 'best thing or the worst' analysis. From what we've seen, Zuko is far from being the worst for Katara. So what's left? Fav/reblogged * It's funny, I don't know if Kataang were totally on par even then. I imagine they were a bit closer at that time, but remember Katara was still 'playing mom' even for a long time before Aang met her. I guess what it is was that, before the whole thing with the Desert (hell, even the Southern Air Temple), Katara was a little more on Aang's kid-ish level. But yeah, after that debacle, she was essentially the 'Gaang Mom', especially for Aang. Aang was able to stay a kid because Katara ENABLED that in him. He was still able to act as though little was bothering him, partly due to his own gradual maturity and inner strength, but mostly because he had Katara as comfort to enable a more natural growth. Katara had so much forced on her WITHOUT that comfort, so it made a faster development out of her psychologically. That is why she ended up on around Zuko's level by the time they started to collide, and that in turn tested their strengths and weaknesses too. I think Zuko and Kataras' fast growth is something else that draws them together, as a result of all the things they've been through. It's something that isn't really healthy, so they both have a lot of grievances that have been buried under the surface. Basically, a yearning for an equal, someone to understand them on their own level and on their own terms. Maybe they 'sense that' in each other somehow? (if that makes sense)
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 14, 2012 12:01:21 GMT -6
Well, it really depends. I mean, from a Kataanger point of view, or even from Aang's, that whole revenge mission really could have turned out to be the worst things for her if she'd gone all the way with it, you know? In that sense, if different choices had been made, he could have ended up being the worst thing for her. However, I agree that with the canon choices that were made, he hasn't shown to be the worst thing for her, soooo, yes!
Win... That is what is left. =D
I agree that she's always been at least a little more mature than him, but back in Book One, she was definitely a lot closer to Aang's level. One example that comes to mind are her reaction to his being naturally better at waterbending than she was. I'm sure by Book Three, with her increased maturity level, she may have been envious, but she wouldn't have been nearly as openly angry about it.
She definitely seemed to take on more and more of the motherly responsibility as the seasons progressed, and I'm glad that they finally called her out on it in "The Runaway" because that moment was just hilarious to me.
I'm not sure that "sensing" that in each other is necessarily the right word choice, but I can't think of a better one, and definitely understand what you're saying. They did have to get to know one another first, though. I mean, Katara and Zuko were enemies until they were imprisoned together. They saw parts of each other, humanity in one another, that they hadn't previously seen. They saw that they had things in common, and Katara was so kind to him that I don't doubt Zuko couldn't have felt like such a shit for betraying her - though I do believe he felt worse about betraying his father-figure since he knew him a lot better. Still, he worked hard to gain her forgiveness, and she wouldn't give it until he gave her something that no one else could have possibly given her: a chance to face her mother's killer, to get some closure. Even Zuko hasn't ever had closure, but he was willing to do that for her.
No, his motives weren't completely altruistic (who's ever are?). He wanted her to forgive him, to see him as a person again and not just the enemy she merely tolerated and slung shit all over. However, he could have done numerous little tiny things to try to win her back, and instead, he did something huge, something she never could have done for herself, something that he probably wishes he could have for himself, and he never once selfishly complained about not getting that where Ursa was concerned. For him, the trip was all about Katara and her getting what she needed.
Pretty much since Book One: Water; Chapter 19: "Seige of the North, Part 1" they have been equals whether they worked against each other or side-by-side.
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 14, 2012 13:11:44 GMT -6
I think Katara gets oversexualized in fanfic too much to be honest. Even if one can be mature in some aspects of life, that doesn't mean they are in other areas. Azula is a good example of this. She can lead armies and take down Ba Sing Se, but we can all agree she is not ready for a relationship. Even though her interaction with Chan WAS hilarious.
Katara is inexperienced and seemingly a little shy when it comes to the romantic stuff. And for good reason. She's 14 and Aang is probably the only boy she's seen in years. I actually find it a turn off in fanfic when she's turned into some sex craving girl. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think she'd be having sex at 14 lol. [Nor do I encourage sex at that age, or find it appealing in stories.] In fact, I'd say she'd wait until she was married. Zuko too, actually. He doesn't strike me as someone who sleeps around.
I just think there are so many other ways to express love between characters.
Agree. And really, Katara enables Aang too much as well. She treats him too much like a child and coddles him constantly. It kind of bothered me that EVERY time they had physical contact it was mainly Katara holding/hugging/coddling him. When does someone comfort her? Never. I don't even remember a time in the series where the roles were reversed, where Aang was doing the comforting. I think he's so comfortable with her comforting him that he doesn't stop to think that maybe she needs support/comfort too. I don't know..I just really find this ship unappealing and not balanced.
[Again, why I prefer him with Toph. I also appreciated how Aang stood up to Toph--the only time he really attempted to put his foot down with Katara was when she was planning to kill someone lol.]
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 14:46:30 GMT -6
Hm.. I don't know about comparing Azula to Zuko this way. The two of them are poles apart in terms of acceptance of their own person. Zuko has a clear idea or at least, a semi-clear idea by the time he gets to the air temple. Azula.. well, you know how utterly broken she is. She's a complete mess- it stands to reason she'd be the worst thing ever romantically. Zuko at least has some romantic experience with Mai and, considering he's never had romantic experience before (that we know of), he's a quick learner.
I suppose this depends on whether people think Katara is at the stage where she's ready - mentally and hormonally- for a physical relationship. There's no way to gauge precisely this in the show on Katara's half though. As for how traditional she is.. is she? (I'm a bit fuzzy on some of these things <.<;; )
I guess it's possible, even if it's not to everyone's tastes. I think MAYBE Zuko would be the one to do the 'lead in'- again, awkward though he is, he does have prior experience which is one thing he has over Katara. Plus it's hinted that Mai and Zuko went the whole way already (I think there was one thing going around Tumblr which hinted at them throwing stuff past the radar- Zuko had sent the attendants for some fruit tarts and left the two alone. They were there the whole night). Considering how 'all over each other' Mai and Zuko were in a physical sense (all that snogging, bleegch), it wouldn't surprise me.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 16:21:30 GMT -6
Personally, I don't mind them 'dipping into' such stuff as long as it's plot and character focused. I wouldn't like them to be reduced to merely sex kittens for the sake of being sex kittens- that is overstating it a bit, especially at their age.
That's not how fanfiction's supposed to be anyway. I agree- it's not just about the lust at all. You're supposed to be able to take these characters' interactions to lead them into such situations. If they're going to be in these kind of scenes, then they should only be a piece in the puzzle, not something that defines and rules the whole thing (because grown people aren't ruled fully by this sort of thing, let alone mid-teens). This is what I really liked about Confused anyway- the intimacy was more.. I don't know, it was like something that built up, and happened when it was natural to in the context of the story (like say the Sukka tent thing). In contrast, I think the Penance Series was just a little.. too much for this sort of thing D8 I couldn't see it fitting in personally.
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Post by advocaat on Nov 14, 2012 16:36:47 GMT -6
I personally don't think Zuko and Mai would've gotten it on while they were together in the show. They were only in a relationship for two months, Mai is the first girl Zuko has ever properly been in a relationship with anyway. I feel like it's a little bizarre to get down and dirty that soon into your first ever relationship. Moreover, Zuko barely noticed girls before that. He basically spent his first years of puberty on a ship full of men. He wouldn't have had any experience with women romantically, and he can barely open up to anybody emotionally. Zuko is awkward and self-conscious and has rather poor self-esteem. I feel like he would balk at the prospect of teh sexytiemz, especially while he's suffering from so much inner turmoil.
Katara is fourteen. By our standards, that is way too young to be sexing it up. Granted, in an era like the one the Avatar-verse is set to mimic, girls would likely be getting married and starting families far younger than we're used to (the Water Tribes do marriages at sixteen after all), but I still think fourteen is a stretch. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy sexytime fics and art, but I agree that Katara gets sexualized too much, especially within the context of shipping. Many Kataangers will say that Zutara is all about hot sex, and many Zutarians will say that Kataang can't handle hot sex, but that's not really addressing the real issue, is it? Both sides need to calm the eff down about sex before someone gets a dick in the eye. I've heard that's painful.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 17:00:38 GMT -6
Ouch. Lol xD Guh, I suppose that's how the fandom is perceived as a whole. Unfortunate really, because there's so much more to Zutara than just teh sexytiems :C Like I said, the plot based fics are the ones that draw me in. I'm perfectly happy without there being ANY sex in it to be honest. I just think it isn't hugely unrealistic for them.
Anyway. I'd like to make a point of this:
I hate when people use the 'he had ulterior motives' against Zuko in the Southern Raiders. Because as you say, folk rarely ever have pure altruistic motives (unless you're taking a bolt of lightning in the chest NOW THAT WAS PURE). And besides, they led him to do everything good for Katara. He stayed up all freaking night after all, thinking over what to do. You don't do that without doing some serious soul searching. I don't think Aang really picked up on anything being wrong or wanted to find out when she stormed off from the campfire. Zuko on the other hand, pursued her to the last. He had so much to answer for, and thus he was really driven to doing good by her as well. This is what made Zuko outshine Aang as far as this was concerned.
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 14, 2012 17:26:41 GMT -6
I agree that the lightning thing was purely altruistic. He could have died, and his life, at that point, was far more important than Katara's. Zuko had to lead a damned country into peace while Katara didn't have to do anything nearly that important. However, when death isn't on the line, yes, no one is altruistic. Even if all a person wants is that good-feeling that comes from being a good person, that's still not really altruistic because something is expected to benefit the person doing the good deed.
Maybe... in that light... Zuko wasn't completely altruistic then. Maybe, he didn't want to live in a world (warning: head canons firing) where Katara's warmth and compassion and love didn't exist. Also, there's the idea that he didn't think he'd die or get as hurt because truly, he does know how to redirect lightning, and he technically did accomplish it, just not properly. I mean, after he falls to the ground with lightning all around him, they draw back the "cameras" to show lightning escaping the volcano because he shot it out there, then go back to him curled on the ground, wounded. I think a lot of people missed that he actually DID redirect it, so all of that lightning wasn't just left inside him. I think he would have died like Aang (before magic spirit water stuff) when Azula shot him, too, if Zuko hadn't dispersed the lightning.
Anyway, still. Zuko has been there for Katara as much as she's been there for him, and I think you're right that that is where Aang falters. Aang needs someone to be there for him, but he doesn't seem to be there for her much of the time.
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