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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 13, 2012 15:47:12 GMT -6
We know fine well how Bryke truly intended for things to be in the end, but that's not the point of this discussion.
Sure you might have some sort of bias to lean one way or the other, but that's kinda the point here. You either take it one way, or the other, depending on how you personally view the show. And it's not like we're just inputting headcanons all over inbetween scenes, we're looking at direct evidence we're given and giving it a realistic interpretation, based on our experiences first watching the show.
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chromeknickers
Bender
I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am!
Posts: 216
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Post by chromeknickers on Nov 13, 2012 16:31:54 GMT -6
The Zutara v Kataang debate on this forum is about which pairing is the most believable or has the most potential or where the creators failed to convince you (or forced down your throat) - in your opinion. No one here can deny that Kataang was intended to be endgame and that Bryke went out of their way to say that Zutara wasn't. But even when we know a certain pairing is canon, some of us cannot help but see the potential in fanon relationships, despite the creator's intentions. At least that's my take. ^_~
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 13, 2012 16:44:28 GMT -6
The Zutara v Kataang debate on this forum is about which pairing is the most believable or has the most potential or where the creators failed to convince you (or forced down your throat) - in your opinion. No one here can deny that Kataang was intended to be endgame and that Bryke went out of their way to say that Zutara wasn't. But even when we know a certain pairing is canon, some of us cannot help but see the potential in fanon relationships, despite the creator's intentions. At least that's my take. ^_~ Basically. And as long as they failed monumentally to draw the audience away FROM Zutara, we has plenty of ammunition lols I think the problem with their, um.. efforts, is that they 'addressed Zutara' but they didn't 'shoot it down' sufficiently enough to be considered friendzoning. Some argue that in EIP, Aang wasn't even concerned by Zuko 'overshadowing him', but the fact is that doesn't matter. What DID matter was that he thought he was like a brother to Katara, and.. well, you know where that leaves Zuko. Neither Aang nor Katara addressed Zuko AT ALL, so that part is naturally left open to interpretation.
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Post by Admin on Nov 13, 2012 17:18:56 GMT -6
The only time Katara ever blushes is when Jun teases them in Sozin's Comet Pt 2, and no, that wasn't a romantic implication. Zuko and Katara blushing at June's comment in S3 caught me off guard, actually. When Zuko was searching for Katara using her necklace, they didn't react the same way when June made the girlfriend remarks. There was also that time when that old man walked up to Zuko and thought Jin was his girlfriend, but Zuko didn't blush at the comment. So it makes me wonder why Zuko and Katara blushed then in Season 3 when they've had those comments thrown at them earlier in the series. I was always curious about that, but anyway, everyone has their own opinion on the matter. I'd like to remind everyone not to spam. One-liners and off-topic posts are not allowed. If it has nothing to do with the Zutara vs. Kataang debate, then delete it now or I'll delete it for you within 24 hrs. Thank you.
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 13, 2012 17:22:23 GMT -6
Let's not forget that the way he yelled "She is not my girlfriend!" to Jun about Katara was the same way he yelled it at the waiter about Jin, and he ended up kissing Jin later. ^o_~^
And while, in S1, it could be argued that she less vehemently told Sokka that Aang wasn't her boyfriend, she also never blushed about it. =D
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Post by emletish on Nov 13, 2012 18:09:03 GMT -6
weighing in about the interpretations thing.
I think one of the biggest problems with ATLA is the disconnect between what the series SHOWS us as the audeince and what it TELLS us. Show dont tell is such a basic story telling principle, and it is so unevenly applied.
I think this is why the shipping debates are so feirce and why there are so many possible explanations. bryke tell us over and over again that Aang likes katara - but they never show it being a mutual attraction. they never show it being an equal friendship. they show it as being a very maternal friendship with Katara constantly acting like Aang's mother. I actually think a Kataang relationship infantalises both Aang and Katara. Aang gets trapped as this forever psuedo child, who also perpetually acts wiser than his mother figure Katara (who would also be trapped in her motherly role). their relationship (despite forced kisses) stays pretty stagnant in these mother/son roles for the entire show. so the series shows us a very strong family vibe - but then tells us it is meant to be romantic.
Bryke tell us that Zutara is terrible and spend a lot of energy telling us that it is bad - and yet they show a beautiful blossoming friendship - whether it has the potential to be romantic is up to the veiwer's interpretation. but many many people saw that possibility because of what was occuring organically in the show. their friendship was growing in a healthy way, and they were very much equals and we were not shown any sort of sibling vibe between them . They demonstrated mutual care for each other. They worked together well as a solo team by choice - both times when they do a double act (TSR and SC) - it is because they chose to, not because the storyline forces them to be alone together. They were shown communicating well and listening to what each other has to say.
From everything that was SHOWN - Zutara definitely had the potential to blossom into a romance.
yet we are told by bryke that this was never what they intended.
but it's not just shipping where this happens. think of Mai's characterisation. the show tells us that she has a repressed childhood and was never allowed to have any fun - to give her a fruedian excuse I guess? but we have previous been shown her interacting with her family in RTO. Her family interactions do not make them seem like an abusive speak when you are spoken to kinda household. Mai speaks out of turn the whole episode without rebuke after all. Her mother openly encourages her to have fun and enjoy herself, shows concern for Mai's welfare and for Tom Toms and shes seems very much like a sympathetic character. I'm not trying to hate on Mai, because I did appreciate her character - but the disconnect between what we are shown and what we are told was so glaring with her character that I couldn't get my head around it.
anyway bottom line is I probably look closer at what the series showed - rather than told.
but I also agree that it would have been a better series as a whole without any concrete romance. The ending of SC with those shipping scenes really threw me off because neither of them made any sense in context. I think the characters are too young and I'm not a fan of your first love is your forever love trope. I would have so much preffered it if everything was left up to our imaginations.
but I think that Zutara really had the potential to be beautiful after canon. they could have had a lovely relationship of equals during which I can imagine them easily bringing out the best in each other.
Kataang only had the potentail to be a big oedipical mess, which would inadvertantly infantalise both members of the couple, and also encourage their worst traits.
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Post by harpalyce on Nov 13, 2012 19:00:28 GMT -6
I honestly like Kataang and Maiko - hell, I've even indulged in a little Jetko from time to time - it's just that I like Zutara MORE.
For me the whole dynamics of relationships in canon gets thrown off by simply how young they are. They're kids! And that makes it hard to pin down if Kataang is happening, or Zutara is happening, or whatever, really. They're kids making big life decisions and saving the world - but they're still kids. I certainly am not the same person I was at age 15, much less the same person I was three years ago.
So honestly people can pick apart canon day after day, but personally, for me, it doesn't mean much. I like to think that in all cases, everyone in the gaang split apart for a bit and did some Growin' The Fuck Up (tm). (I make the occasional exception for Maiko because in Zuko's situation it probably would have been politically advantageous to get hitched early and have a heir at the ready to consolidate power on the Fire Nation throne, leaving Azula as a very firm 'pretender' instead of a more plausible candidate, but I digress.)
The wonderful thing about fandom, really, is that everybody gets to bring their own opinions and interpretations to the table. It's kind of like having a big potluck dinner. Yeah, you might not be too fond of Aunt Millie's tuna noodle casserole, but there's always Uncle Bob's barbecue and your second cousin's awesome rum cake on the dessert table. Meanwhile maybe somebody else really loves that tuna noodle casserole. Everybody can just eat what they want, and there's plenty to go around.
I tend to do all my shipping with that big caveat of "after everyone's grown up", though, partially because I really hate the 'love at first sight' trope they used with Kataang. You can feel free to blame this on my being an old spinster of coming-up-on-24 who is doomed to be alone forever because she never found her one true love at age 13 or what have you. If I wanted to put on my picky hat of feminist overanalysis, I could go ahead and say that Kataang personally makes me feel uncomfortable because it seems so one-sided in canon for such a long time, to the point where during the last few episodes - after the Ember Island Players one, especially - I think you could read it as Katara feeling pressured to say yes. Both for Aang's morale, and because he's the avatar (!), who I imagine it's hard to say no to. Of course Aang still manages to be humble so it's less of an issue for him. Katara, on the other hand... I hope in Season 2 she gets a big slice of You Don't Get Everything You Want pie. But I digress.
One thing I don't like, though, is this whole shipping war mentality that seems to be prevalent in the fandom. I'm actually going to place a lot of blame on Bryke for it, thanks to their attitude re: Zutara. Once the creators of a show declare some aspect of the fanbase open season for mocking, things are, of course, going to get real ugly real fast. The day nobody tags their hate on Tumblr is the day I will be happy, or possibly the day hell will freeze over - not quite sure. Possibly both. I'm just hoping that this mistake won't be repeated in LoK, but then I'm also just shipping ~*teh yaois*~ so I doubt any of my ships will be directly sunk or mocked by the creators because acknowledging the many, many pictures of male leads going at it like rabbits would probably get some moral guardian up in arms. ...that and Bolin/Iroh is still nicely obscure. But I digress. Again.
...Potluck metaphor. Really that's the only good part of this post.
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Post by emletish on Nov 13, 2012 19:19:05 GMT -6
I love that potluck analogy - that really tickled my funny bone. Truly it would be nice if the entire fandom could be like this and we'd all sample eachothers dishes and, sure we'd have a favourite, but we shouldn't get all up in aunt millie's face about how we hate her nasty tuna casserole. there'd be peace in our times if that could happen!
I think the EIP episode is a something that makes me uncomfortable to - because it was very obvious through dialogue and body language that Katara was not into Aang in that scene, but she didn't want to hurt him right before a big battle. I also read that she felt a little pressured to be with Aang.
Gosh these boards are eating my brain - I am off to bake some more tasty Zutara fic for the metaphorical potluck dinner that is fanfiction.net
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 13, 2012 19:41:29 GMT -6
An excellent point that I never really thought of before. I'm very shocked Aang didn't bring it up, unless the writers wanted us to believe Aang did not consider Zuko a threat in that department. But Aang was so paranoid that Katara didn't like him I can't imagine that didn't bother him--especially after Zuko practically knocked him out of the seat next to Katara, lmao.
Zuko: 1 Aang: 0
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Post by heirofseaandfire on Nov 13, 2012 21:02:27 GMT -6
boogum- this about the set in stone thing! The thing about Zutara is that it seems less... 'fated'. Kataang has that thing in the Cave of Two Lovers, but it's all very 'artificial'. Because they were pretty much 'set up' to kiss. It just didn't seem right. Zuko and Katara were just locked up together by chance- it was something that just 'happened' out of nowhere, not something that was part of the 'fate' that was decided at the beginning. Oh and let's not forget the whole thing where Aunt Wu was saying at the END of the episode about how you hold your own fate in your hands.. DFHFGDHJFAAF SO. MANY. MISLEADING. THINGS This. I feel like The Cave of Two Lovers was a contrived plot device for a kiss and a way for Aang and Katara to parallel the lovers. Bad parallel, Bryke. First off, the tale of the two lovers is that, (according to Chong), "two lovers, forbidden from one another, a war divides their people." This does not sound like a parallel for Aang and Katara at all. In fact, it is a much more fitting possible parallel for Zuko and Katara. Add that to the fact that The Cave of Two Lovers appeared at the beginning of season 2 and The Crossroads of Destiny was the season finale. And in The Crossroads of Destiny, we find Zuko and Katara thrown into a cave together also with glowing crystals and developing an understanding of each other. Relating to one another. Talking about lost mothers. Destiny. Touching scars no one is allowed to touch and offering healing via magic spirit waterSeriously, Bryke? Were you even paying attention to the metaphors you were creating? For a Kataang endgame... you have chosen... poorly.
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