Zutara vs. Kataang

[kathrynlacey]

Maybe I'm just biased because I've never been family oriented, and keeping friendships when I've moved from state to state my entire life has been pretty much impossible for me. I mean, the thing is... I have these friends, and when I see them again... it isn't about "catching up." I can fall right back into the friendship like I never left, but when I'm apart from them, I don't feel it as strongly as I wish I could. Because that's been my lifelong experience with friendships, I think that's the only way I know how to translate canon-Zutara. I think, like you said, when they see each other again, they can probably just fall right back into their friendships, but when they're apart, I have a hard time envisioning them staying so freaking close regardless of everything... even though... I've written that once or twice in my bad, will-never-be-posted-ever fanfictions... It just... doesn't feel very real to me which is probably why a part of me thinks those stories I've written about it are bad...

Could just be me, though. ^^_^^;;

I really just wish they were freaking canon. I don't really want old!Zutara. I want lifelong!Zutara. =D

Don't get me wrong... Tenzin is the first airbender I've ever seen who made me think, "Huh... All these years... and I never knew... Airbending is so badass!" and I laughed when we first saw Bumi, and I desperately want to see Kya, and older!Aang is super hot when I look at him by himself without Zuko anywhere nearby, but ugh...

I just want what could-have-been, apparently... because I have liked Zutara best since I first saw them interact together, even if they were being jerks to each other at that time... but... once they became friends... OMG! I can't even... I'm having difficulty finding the right words for this... Perhaps this is why I have so many unfinished fanfics floating around. I get an idea in my head, and words just don't cut it for what I've envisioned. :: sighs ::

[advocaat]

Their story can't just end there. I don't care what Bryan says. The gaang went through the most important time in their entire lives together. They fought and cried and lost and laughed together, and Zuko has permanent proof of their bond on his chest. Avatar Roku said that some friendships are so strong, they can even transcend lifetimes. I'd like to think that the friendship Zuko and Katara shared was at least strong enough to last through one.

So no. Bryke may have created these characters, but they can't just say this is the end. They can't take away the bond that Zuko and Katara worked so hard to form.

[kathrynlacey]

See, I think my problem is that I can't just ignore what the creators say. I mean... in some ways, yes, because our fandom has so many talented artists and writers, but every time they say something about how great Kataang is or how Zutara just will never be, I always feel extremely depressed about it for a while. It's a freaking show. Why do I feel so damned attached to it? Who knows... It's just made of too much win for my emotional levels, apparently.

I just... feel unsatisfied... It's like... Katara and Zuko have friend-zoned each other, and that crap is just cruel. Have you ever been friend zoned? It's awful. I have been, and I've done it, and people who do it are terrible, especially when they know they're doing it. Maybe this is why Zutara angst just kills me so much... because I've known what it's like on both sides of the spectrum!

The worst part for me, really, is that I read all of this great fan fic, and I see all of these amazing pieces of art, and I honestly forget they're not canon while I'm immersed in it, but then I'm done, and I remember, and it just hurts. I just get too emotional over meaningless crap, but A:TLA is my addiction. I've been addicted for almost seven years. I've never been so dedicated to an unhealthy obsession... Why can't I just stalk people like normal crazies?

I don't think shipping is a matter of good vs. evil, though. I think it's really that everyone wants confirmation that they're doing the right thing, and if someone doesn't like their ship, it's like... Oh no! Not everyone likes what I like! This is terrible! It's the same reason why religion and politics are best discussed between people who share the same beliefs and values.

Personally, I don't like Aang. I don't these he's a bad kid or anything... Really, it's just that he's a child, and he acts like a child, and I don't like children. He grew a lot in the series, but he's still just a kid, and I can't force myself to like him. The first season is the hardest for me to watch because ALL of the characters are like that, but by the third season, they're all wonderful and lovely.

Anyway, yeah. Maybe that's part of why I don't ship Kataang, but the acceptance thing is really the breaking point for me. No person is perfect, and if someone loves you, they won't try to stop the way you feel. They'll try to help you through it.

[kathrynlacey]

See, I feel like I should love him, and when I'm not watching the show, I can imagine him as an adult and like him, but whenever I watch it... ugh... He's just such a child... and children are... bleh to me... In my twenty-two (almost twenty-three) years of life, I've never wanted children, and I never liked playing with kids who were younger than me. It's just gotten worse as I've grown into adulthood which is weird because kids freaking love me... I don't know why...

Aang is one of those little kids that just annoys the hell out of me, and his little school boy crush would have been just fine if it had just stayed a crush. Really, I've just always preferred him with On Ji.

Ooooh... Your analysis makes me think of how scientifically... there could be many worlds producing many outcomes simply based on the choice between two or more decisions. If you have papaya for breakfast, it sparks a whole new timeline as opposed to if you choose to have mango. In one timeline, Zutara could be canon. This is why I love fanfiction. It allows other timelines/universes/dimensions to be realized.

[emletish]

ooh I have so much to say about this - but I'll try be concise. I have a few big problems with Kataang which I will list.

I like Aang and Katara - but Kataang is just so oedipical that it makes me uncomfortable. Like Advocaat I tried to like them when I first watched the series - but I just couldn't. Aang is a prepubescent teen in the show and he is so much less mature than Katara for the entirety of the show. It makes me so uncomfortable to see him tongue kissing Katara at the end. Katara was functionally Aang's mother for the entirety of the series and she never showed any romantic interest in him. I can see them being incredibly close platonically - because Aang does need a motherly figure I think. but they do not have any romantic chemistry.

In fact she seemed a bit uncomfortable at the prospect most of the time. think about the aunt Wu episode and how she ignored Aang's confession of his feelings and pretended she didn't hear. he is right next to her at this point and I think she felt that pretending she didn't hear was the easiest way to let him down.

then there is all that forced kissing which bothers me a lot - there is a lot of entitlement in Aang's attitude and behaviour in the EIP scene. seeing Aang fans defend Aang forcing a kiss on Katara despite the fact that she is obviously saying no (both verbally and through her body language) makes me uncomfortable. that is not sweet - that is Aang negating what Katara is saying and forcing his own feelings on her. Aang's feelings are worth more than Katara's right to say no. He's persued her for *so long* and the Avatar can get any girl he wants so therefore he gets Katara. I don't like the 'nice guy' implications of that at all.

also from a stroytelling point of view there is just no satisfaction for me in Kataang. the ending feels so forced. I feel like Katara is kissing Aang not because Katara the character I have come to know and love wants to - but because of the 'hero always gets the girl' thing. She is kissing him because of a tired old trope - not because of characterisation and story telling build up. the big problem for me with Kataang is that we are told that Aang loves Katara (repeatedly) but he doesn't show it in healthy ways. Katara doesn't show or tell anything about her feelings.

then there is the inherent hypocrisy that would occur in a Kataang relationship. Aang's nomad beliefs would require that he not settle down in a tradditional marriage - which is something that Katara would want. Aang was willing to jeopordise the stability of the entire world because of his air nomad beliefs (I believe that Aang leaving Ozai alive would have bitten Zuko on the arse in a big way and I will always dislike how aang disregarded the opinion of every single adult in hisd life in the finale - but still got proved right by the deus ex lion turtle. he had to put the good of the entire world before his own spiritual needs - but in the end Aang...did not??!) Anyway Aang adheres so strongly to his beliefs in the finale and puts these beliefs ahead of teh good of the world. it just makes Aang the biggest hypocrite if then turns around and disregards all the other beliefs just so he can get some Katara hoochy.

for me the series would have been so much more satisfying if it ended with Aang looking serene and peaceful over Ba Sing Se.

[emletish]

Zutara on the other hand, was just wonderful and had everything the Kataang dynamic lacked.

gosh - when two people just becoming 'friends' makes your heart race - you know there is something very special there.

zuko and Katara are much more equal in age personality and maturity. they are both veyr mature for their age (due to circumstances forcing them to grown up beyond their years). They both have a much more wholistic view of each other. Aang and Katara have each other on big pedastals and never see a complete picture of each other. Zuko and Katara on the other hand - have seen each other at their worst - and still like and respect each other. in fact maybe their adversairal relationship helped them respect each other long before they were friends.

what can I say - I like mutual respect and equality in a relationship.

I also like freedom to be yourself in a relationship - which was another thing Zuko and Katara had.

I felt like Katara was much more unrestrained around Zuko and was a bit freer to be herself. she didn't need to mother him, she didn't need to pretend for him or 'keep it all together' for him (the way her motherly role in teh group required her to around the others). and Zuko gets to be this dorky teenage guy around Katara; one who isn't sure all the time, who gets a bit lost and confused and who wants to please and just wants some validation. he learns and grows so much from his interactions with her and you can actually see it happening.

their relationship actually progresses and grows and changes and becomes closer - and I love that. I love that you can see it happening and it is not always easy. (show - don't tell bryke). Aang just decided he liked Katara right off and love at first sight does not often appeal to me. it just appears so shallow to me in comparison with the slow build of Zutara.

I also think that an interracial paring like Zutara, especially considering how recently their two countries were at war - is a nice statement about love overcoming the odds and unity in the world. two nations that were at war coming together in the form of two lovers - what a nice message, espeically as the ending of ATLA is meant to exemplify peace and a changing world order. thematically Zutara would have worked so well with portraying this.

I could ramble more - but I feel I've rambled enough.

I'll just say that Zuko and Katara challenge each other and help each other grow as people, while simultaneously accepting and supporting each other. their is friendship built on acceptance and mutual respect. their is a story about redemption, and love transcending the boundaries of race and class and war.

and I find that so much more satisfying that an oedpical - hero gets the girl - story.

[chromeknickers]

Nov 12, 2012 17:27:23 GMT -6 emletish said:

also from a stroytelling point of view there is just no satisfaction for me in Kataang. the ending feels so forced. I feel like Katara is kissing Aang not because Katara the character I have come to know and love wants to - but because of the 'hero always gets the girl' thing. She is kissing him because of a tired old trope - not because of characterisation and story telling build up. the big problem for me with Kataang is that we are told that Aang loves Katara (repeatedly) but he doesn't show it in healthy ways. Katara doesn't show or tell anything about her feelings.

This part in bold I definitely agree with - to the victor goes the spoils of war. Katara becomes a prize. It's unfortunate because not only did Bryke reduce Katara to an object (and object to be won), but they essentially corrupt Aang's character. Aang as the kid with a crush is cute; Aang thinking he's entitled to Katara is just so far removed from who he was in S1-2. And while supporters of this development can say that Aang was channelling his past lives (and that Katara is his soulmate), the writers did a poor job of showing that. Instead, it's almost like Aang's personality splits. (And this is coming from someone who adores Aang.)

I do believe I've had this discussion with Kim quite a few times in the past, but to me Bryke wrote the Kataang v Zutara dynamic like any man would - a man who was most likely the goofy kid who never got the hot girl, like Aang. They (Bryke) identify with Aang. Zuko, to them, is the arrogant handsome rich kid that they hated in school. Sure, he could change and eventually become their (Aang's) friend, but the story is about Aang, not Zuko. So Aang (Bryke) gets the girl.

[fatalexodus]

I've tried liking Kataang, but it just doesn't seem that viable for me. Like what the others said, it is that whole "hero always gets the girl" dynamic the entire time. Plus, there's that idea of Katara as a mother figure to Aang and the gang. It doesn't carry any romantic context from towards him, whereas I do agree that it seemed like Aang was forcing his feelings onto her most of the time (I still think all those impulsive kisses were cringe-worthy, especially since you see how she reacts to them).

Zutara, on the other hand, I was rooting for from the getgo. Others might rebuke, "Zutara is so typical; Bad boy gets the good girl/bad boy changes for the better". But it is so much more than that. I think we can all agree that Katara hated Zuko's guts for most of the entire series, and that it took a hell of a long time for him to be able to break the ice with her. I liked that about Zutara. They were equals, with similar backgrounds. Where they weren't butting heads, they were sharing some of the same feelings. There was a definite progression happening, character development at its finest from the Bryke team. Even though it isn't canon, I'll probably still be supporting it.

[dynamojacks]

I've addressed this before on the other thread but, I should probably add a few other things to it as well.

Aside from the storytelling method behind them (less of the 'romantic cues' BS- in fact, none really), there was also the 'oh so shallow' fact of the two being both physically AND psychologically mature. Both of them have been tested all their lives by the war in some form or other, while Aang was fresh outta the iceberg- not to mention he was still 12, had yet to even see a girl and had a familial connection to Katara after she'd pronounced them family.
The fact that Katara was ahead of him in terms of body and experience made for more of an interesting attraction with Zuko. Also Zuko was like the 'older brother' sort of friend to Aang (Firebending Masters comes to mind) and well, his teacher, so he was the adult figure to him. Combine that with Katara being the 'mom' of the group, and you've got yourselves an overpowering dual dynamic there. I was just watching the Sozin's Comet Part 1 episode where Zuko was essentially driving the heck out of Aang, trying to keep him the fuck focused. This here shows Aang's kid-ishness more, which just causes a lot of clash.

Really, I get the defenses of Kataang, but I don't like it when folks can't accept that people have problems with these kinds of things. IMO, Bryke messed up with their 'true pairing from the beginning' stuff when Zuko got into the mix. The story that was being told became less about the 'one true romance' with every Zuko field trip- it became about his acceptance to the group, his redemption for the world's sake and his training of Aang. Combine THAT with the character development on Zuko's part and the lack of evident confrontation-resolution on Aang's part (seventh chakra, battling Ozai), and you've got even MORE mixed dynamics in there.

And.. well, The Southern Raiders was just the icing on the cake, wasn't it? I mean come on. You have a hugely emotional journey, testing of morality, a rekindling of the connection that was lost and 'doomed' after the betrayal, and at the end, forgiveness and total trust. It was enormous. A lot of the stuff between them was implied from Crossroads of Destiny, with the connection about their mothers and such. And you got to admit you don't stay up all night in front of someone's tent if you're not doing some SERRRIOUS soul searching. He even does the exact same for Iroh later.

boogum- this about the set in stone thing! The thing about Zutara is that it seems less... 'fated'. Kataang has that thing in the Cave of Two Lovers, but it's all very 'artificial'. Because they were pretty much 'set up' to kiss. It just didn't seem right. Zuko and Katara were just locked up together by chance- it was something that just 'happened' out of nowhere, not something that was part of the 'fate' that was decided at the beginning. Oh and let's not forget the whole thing where Aunt Wu was saying at the END of the episode about how you hold your own fate in your hands.. DFHFGDHJFAAF
SO. MANY. MISLEADING. THINGS

[harlowrd]

Nov 12, 2012 17:57:19 GMT -6 chromeknickers said:

I do believe I've had this discussion with Kim quite a few times in the past, but to me Bryke wrote the Kataang v Zutara dynamic like any man would - a man who was most likely the goofy kid who never got the hot girl, like Aang. They (Bryke) identify with Aang. Zuko, to them, is the arrogant handsome rich kid that they hated in school. Sure, he could change and eventually become their (Aang's) friend, but the story is about Aang, not Zuko. So Aang (Bryke) gets the girl.

I've always had this impression as well. One of the reasons why I became such a fan of this show is how much it wins at portraying female characters, and the fact that it didn't extend to include their relationships (except maybe for Suki's) is just disappointing.

I do believe that as far as Bryke are concerned, Katara and Zuko's friendship pretty much died shortly after the comet. I can honestly say that them becoming (and remaining) BFFs in canon would be my second choice for them, which I think says a lot about the nature and appeal of Zutara. Emletish mentioned their mutual respect, equality, and freedom to be themselves as desirable elements for a relationship, which I totally agree with - and they are all friendshippy elements. For a lot of Zutarians, it seems like it's that solid friendship foundation that makes Zutara so appealing, and I guess that's ultimately a matter of preference...a lot of people don't think romantic relationships require friendship at all. I don't think I'll ever agree with them, so Zutara will always be preferable to me over the canon ships. :/ Katara and Aang are technically friends, but their friendship doesn't really contain any of those elements. In fact, they're more like siblings than friends, IMO.

So ultimately I agree with vassilissa; I'm glad Zutara isn't canon, because Bryke's ideas about relationships are way too different from my own for me to be happy with how they'd undoubtedly screw up do Zutara.