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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 17:22:13 GMT -6
Is there a reason why you prefer Zutara over the canon Maiko? What does Zutara have that Maiko lacks?
Keyword- INTERACTION. Lots of it, lots and lots of it. Leading up to the cave, and even beyond that, there was tension and excitement, humility and understanding. With Mai and Zuko, there was .. this interaction on a surface level. Mai looked like she was trying to scratch the surface in some way, but she had a bit of a funny way of doing it, aimlessly trying to cheer him up in moments when he's not up to anything. Katara, though, is very much more open and forthright, more driven by emotion than Mai is, especially when she's pissed off. Zuko responds to her energy, more so than he seems to respond to Mai's.. despondant nature. Because for one thing, he needs that stuff out in the open. He needs someone to drive him and help him change right now, not just accept him and calm his fire down. He has this fire for a reason. You shouldn't just stifle it.
Besides, I don't think Mai's character in and of itself was established very well. You have her backstory which is essentially used as an excuse for her closed-off behaviour. I really didn't like this- it clashed with Zuko SO much and didn't do much for developing her character anyway. :/ All it said was basically 'this is how she is so you should feel sorry for her'. None of that with Zuko. He's apologetic about his screw-ups and he wants to not let his past define him. Katara's the one who's going to make sure of that- because if he slips up like that again, he dies. So it's only about moving forward with those guys. It's much more positively driven by the storyline than Maiko is.
The thing with Maiko... I took it as the 'illusion of happiness and normality', which is what I got from the whole Fire Nation segment of the story. Zutara has no illusions. It is what it is- it's deep, it's full of pain and redemption, and it has rewards in the end. Maiko is like a nice 'trip back to the past'... but for the story this is just pants. Because 'a trip to the past' is the LAST thing Zuko needs right now.
Ugh. I get a bit peeved when people take the 'Mai puts up with his BS' route with explaining Maiko because.. she looked like she just dismissed his concerns to me. He's been going through some serious changes the past few years, you can't just pretend it didn't happen and hope things go back to when you were thirteen (did anything even happen then? It was never made clear e_e). They aren't just any old teenage gripes either. He just threw mud in the first person who'd ever trusted him for years besides his uncle. AND if you please, he cast aside his beloved uncle. He just lost the connections to two people in his life who were incredibly significant, and he's overwhelmed with confusion about everything on top of that. This isn't something you should just gloss over and 'not worry' about. Jeez. I make no apologies when I say the storytelling was SERIOUSLY freaking flawed when it came to THIS romance.
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Post by advocaat on Nov 14, 2012 21:24:53 GMT -6
I felt like Maiko just kind of hit us in the face. Aside from one flashback, there's no indication that Zuko and Mai spent any time together before Zuko was banished. And they weren't even friends in that flashback. Mai was just a member of Azula's little girl squad to him. Then suddenly Zuko returns from banishment and they're an item? What? When did that happen? My thought when I saw Mai kiss him on the boat was, "okay, this is really random. Did the creators just suddenly feel like Zuko needed a love interest or something?" I was really disappointed because I thought Zuko deserved a more exciting romance than just "o hai boy I had a crush on as a kid, let's kiss." Zuko is such an interesting character with do many facets, and Bryke gave him that?
I prefer Zutara because a relationship with Katara would've been so much more meaningful and satisfying. Zuko and Mai do nothing for each other, but Zuko and Katara do EVERYTHING. I don't really need to go into detail, the rest of this forum has already covered what makes Zutara great. Just, gah. It feels like in the end Aang got what he wanted and Mai got what she wanted, but Zuko and Katara ended up in relationships that weren't going to give them what they truly needed.
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Post by harlowrd on Nov 14, 2012 22:00:26 GMT -6
Ugh. I get a bit peeved when people take the 'Mai puts up with his BS' route with explaining Maiko because.. she looked like she just dismissed his concerns to me. He's been going through some serious changes the past few years, you can't just pretend it didn't happen and hope things go back to when you were thirteen (did anything even happen then? It was never made clear e_e). They aren't just any old teenage gripes either. He just threw mud in the first person who'd ever trusted him for years besides his uncle. AND if you please, he cast aside his beloved uncle. He just lost the connections to two people in his life who were incredibly significant, and he's overwhelmed with confusion about everything on top of that. This isn't something you should just gloss over and 'not worry' about. Jeez. Yeah, that's a pretty terrible argument, because it dismisses Zuko's emotional issues as some kind of "emo crap" when we know there's much more to it than that. He has some very deep issues that need healing, not neglect. He's had that his whole life - that conditional approval. What he needs, IMO, is a lot of love, affection, and understanding, and Mai is not in a position to give that to him. It's not a problem with her character or who she is as a person - it's a matter of compatibility. It's been mentioned several times in discussions about Maiko that they both can do better than each other, and I completely agree with that. I think Katara's nurturing disposition would fulfill those needs for him, but the fact that they see each other as equals would keep her from feeling the need to mother him like she does the others (especially Aang).
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 15, 2012 10:17:51 GMT -6
Oh gawd, don't get me started on that 'emo crap' trope that people put Zuko through. When they simplify him like that, and then dare to flare up when someone says Mai appears that way, that screams gargantuan double standards. Zuko's not a HAPPY person by any means, but that's because he has so little basis for happiness right now, unlike ..say, Aang (Aang's been through a shit-tonne, don't get me wrong. But he still has the capacity to accept love in the way Zuko doesn't right now.)
I'll be fair to Mai. She does at least LEARN that he needs to let his anger out as opposed to keep it in, but I have a hard time believing she's capable of doing that on her own, because Zuko was prompted by Azula to talk about his anger, not Mai. Mai and Ty Lee both just parroted her when putting the pressure on Zuko to let loose. So it doesn't really show how much she's able to balance him. She does nice little things FOR him (preventing him from getting sick by covering his eyes in front of Lo/Li, lol), but ecch... it's just not enough as far as his deeper needs are concerned. And besides, Mai herself has her own serious neglect issues. Combining the neglected with the neglected can end in tears if the two end up shutting each other down, and that's just how it looks here. Other than when Mai chases him to the Boiling Rock, you don't really see Mai coming out of her shell, ever. And even THAT isn't orchestrated in the best way either because it's just like 'jilted lover hunts their ex down' or some crap. I honestly lost patience with her at that moment because it was obvious that she just couldn't see that Zuko had OTHER THINGS besides their fricking relationship to be worried about. Uuuugh. Again, she probably thought she was being abandoned and neglected again. Which I get. But it had to happen, and she didn't exactly get brownie or sympathy points from me when she pulled the crap that she did D8 (I blame the story for that.. Also HOW CONVENIENT is it that the warden of the prison happened to be Mai's uncle? Well, now.)
Now. Katara knows exactly what Zuko needs to be worried about, and this is what makes them kick off so great. She doesn't 'shut him down' by any means- she confronts him. This confrontation is exactly what his psyche needs. At the moment, he thinks he can move on and start off on a new leaf- which he CAN, but he also needs to learn that it can't come easy, that you can't just move from one thing to another if you've done a lot of damage. Confronting the people responsible for his past doesn't just stop at Ozai, after all- it ends with himself, even though he wasn't responsible for everything, he still knows he messed up too and doesn't make excuses for it. So it's since the threat that Zuko really, properly comes to terms with all the damages he's done (or at least, is able to process it more clearly) and sets about fixing himself as well as making a new start. The cool thing is that Zuko becomes a huge motivator, too. And he's hugely motivated BY Katara. So they really seem to bring out more in each other than Zuko and Mai do.
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 15, 2012 12:36:58 GMT -6
Okay… I have a lot to say on this subject… maybe… Let’s see if I can even put it into words properly… I like Katara. I like Zuko. I like Mai. When we first see Mai, she’s very clearly bored with life, and she’s willing to go with her two best friends to escape the doldrums of her parents’ lives. However… she never seems to get over that boredom, no matter what she did. It was like she didn’t want to escape it, and I couldn’t see why, but I simply accepted it as her character.
My boyfriend has never liked her from the instant he saw her, and in “Return to Omashu” when Ty Lee says meaningfully, “It’ll be interesting seeing Zuko again, won’t it Mai?” and Mai blushes, he flipped. Zuko has been his favorite character since the get-go, and that blush, right there, told him that Maiko was going to happen, and he hated it. He instantly knew they would be terrible for each other, and he wasn’t wrong.
Between “Crossroads of Destiny” and “Awakening,” there was supposed to be some mini comic thing that Nickelodeon did that may-or-may-not be canon (I’m going with partial canon and partial misinformation because Azula called Zuko “little brother” in it despite being the younger sister). Anyway, it depicted Azula throwing Mai and Zuko together to get them to date. It also showed us the conclusion to whatever “thing” he had going with Jin. Mai and Zuko seemed to hit it off, and Mai seemed happy in it for the first time ever. Just remember, almost as long as Aang was in his coma, they were in Ba Sing Se. They had to wait for Fire Nation troops to come and take over the city, mind you, so there was plenty of time for them to get to know each other better before they went home.
Cut to the first time we ever see them interact on screen since Zuko got his scar. He is opening his heart to her, his fears, his worries, and she disregards them. I don’t believe for an instant she shut him down to be malicious. I think she did it because she doesn’t understand how to handle this sort of thing because she’s suppressed those feelings of hers for so long, and have you noticed how at least fifty percent of the time, a child will adopt the same behaviors as her/his parents? Her parents shut her down through her childhood, so I think she’s coming full circle and shutting down others.
Then, we have the episode where they’re having their weird little picnic thing. They both seem happy. That’s fine. New love, young love, can be great in the beginning even if two people aren’t compatible in the long run. However, Azula interrupts them, and wills Mai away. Azula’s will is stronger than Mai’s desire to be by Zuko’s side. Mai is Azula’s pawn, and I imagine she was that way during their time at the Royal Fire Academy for Girls.
Do you see a pattern here? Through her childhood, she has to be what her parents want her to be. She is shut down if she tries to explore her own self. During her school years/early teen years, she has to be what Azula wants her to be, or the consequences could be dire. She has never once had the opportunity to truly explore who she is, who she wants to be because she’s always had to conform to the ideas of those around her. It doesn’t matter that later, her parents seemed to want her to explore herself because it was too late by then. She’s already been groomed to shut down anything constructive/creative in herself. I would also be willing to bet money that Azula encouraged Mai to learn some sort of fighting skill. I imagine Azula would want her friends to be strong enough to take care of themselves while still obeying and fearing her.
As a result of her constantly being shut down, she doesn’t know any better than to shut others down, and she certainly doesn’t really comprehend proper compassionate behavior like Katara does, so when we see Zuko upset about not receiving an official invitation to the big war meeting, all she can do is try to help him shut out those emotions and replace them with other thoughts and activities.
Anyway, by the time we hit “The Beach,” we see that she’s starting to come full circle. Her parents and Azula have always shut her down, so now she needs to truly shut down others and boss them around. Who better than Zuko who is also Azula’s pawn? Zuko tries so hard to impress her, to make her happy, but she rejects all of this. I don’t think she really knows how to accept this sort of thing gracefully, and emotions have generally been her enemy so far.
By the time they hit the party, I imagine Zuko was likely exhausted from all of his efforts. He doesn’t give up easily, but constantly trying to please someone who refuses to even acknowledge the effort is hard. He wants her. He likes her. He wants to make her happy, but he doesn’t know how to do it, especially with all of his own inner turmoil with which he must deal.
That’s why we see the jealous explosion where Ruon-Jian is talking to Mai, and later when he’s trying to explain why he feels angry. This is also the first time we hear Mai actively trying to encourage him to speak about his feelings. However, soon after, she says, “Whatever, that doesn’t excuse the way you’ve been acting.” While this can be perceived as shutting him down again, I actually liked that she called him out on this. Yes, he has suffered monumentally, and he’s done so many terrible things, but while he shouldn’t necessarily have to suppress those feelings, there are far more constructive ways to go about venting those frustrations, and I don’t believe Mai was equipped to help him figure that out.
Another instance in which I can actually see her point of view was during the Boiling Rock when she confronts him. From her point of view, he’s doing the wrong thing. They were both raised to believe that the Fire Nation was the greatest nation on Earth (and yes, this is what the world is called because I’ve heard it called that at least twice… Once by Long Feng when he’s talking about the Earth King being a figurehead and once again by another character, but I can’t remember who or when…), that the Fire Nation was spreading its wealth. Mai never experienced the truth like Zuko did because she’s always lived inside the boundaries set by the Fire Nation. She’s always been on the islands, in the colonies where the Fire Nation citizens were, or with Azula.
The problem is that she doesn’t listen to Zuko. She doesn’t try to understand his point of view. She only feels her anger, and she’s only going to appease that. She isn’t going to try to listen to Zuko’s side at all when he desperately wants her to listen.
Sure, she saves his life by finally standing up to Azula and almost dying for it, but “that doesn’t excuse the way she’s been acting” through the entirety of their relationship.
Cut to Zuko’s time with the gaang, namely Katara. While, yes, she doesn’t accept him for a while, he works his ass off to help change her mind, to give her the kind of closure she needs to finally be okay with him, and she finally accepts him, forgives him. After that, it’s all uphill. They work so well together as a team. It isn’t constant bickering back and forth, and no one is shutting the other down. We don’t see them fight. For the first time, Zuko has someone with whom he can speak openly about how he feels, and he won’t be shut down.
The things he does for Katara are accepted and appreciated. They help each other. They save each other. Hell, even when Katara still acted like she hated him, she saved him from falling to his death. It wasn’t Suki. It wasn’t Sokka. It wasn’t Aang or Toph. Katara reached up and gripped his hands to bring him into Appa’s saddle because that is exactly who Katara is, and it works so well with whom Zuko is. They are both caring, compassionate people though they show these things in different ways. They mesh together really well, and they have such a distinct chemistry whether that be interpreted into mere friendship or a fledgling romance. I like both.
Something that bothered me in the series is… after the Boiling Rock, Zuko never mentioned Mai again on screen. Sure, he may have done so off screen, but yeah… Once we reach the day of his coronation, he seemed to have forgotten she’d even existed. “Oh crap! You’re out of prison… I totally spaced about that! Let’s make up and have babies n’ shit!” That’s real dedication and compatibility right there. That whole, “Don’t ever break up with me again.” Thing was bullshit, too. We’re right back to where we started with Zuko being shut down about things. He’s apparently not even allowed to choose to leave someone if he ultimately discovers it isn’t working. To me, this feels more like a relationship of convenience, so that he won’t be alone, than anything solid.
Then we get to the Promise… Maybe something changed in the year they were together and she didn’t constantly shut him down, but the fact that he’d been keeping so many secrets from her suggests otherwise. I don’t know why she expects him to ever be open with her after the way she never lets him really talk about things he needs to get off his chest. She was right to dump him because after saying, “Hey, I’m open to communication. Please, communicate with me.” He didn’t do it, and she should have left him. Hell, they should have broken up long before that at the rate they were going. I’m not even going to get into that weird Zuki moment, either.
I just… I don’t think they were ever right for each other, and I’m honestly shocked they lasted as long as they did. I truly hope they don’t get back together in the Search because… even if Katara isn’t his end game, he deserves someone with whom he can be open, someone with whom he can truly feel he can communicate, someone who truly loves him and will treat him with respect.
Besides, after conforming to fit her parents’ perceived role for her, then having to fit Azula’s ideal role for her, she had no room for herself once Zuko became Fire Lord. As they were together, I assume she would be expected to be the future Fire Lady, so she would have to fit that role. At no time in the entire series did she have a moment to look at her own life. Others always came before her, and she could never discover herself.
Even though Katara often put others before herself, she still knew just who she was, and she and Zuko were definitely at the right place at the right time to be together. It wouldn’t have worked in Book One or even in Book Two, but it was perfect by the end of Book Three… TL;DR: Mai and Zuko have zero compatibility due to their inability to communicate with and trust one another the way that Katara and Zuko can.
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Post by advocaat on Nov 15, 2012 14:07:36 GMT -6
That was lovely. I think you pretty much summed up what we're all thinking. Zuko and Mai don't have an honest, open relationship, and they aren't giving each other what they need. Romance or not, Zuko and Katara have a supportive, understanding relationship, and they give each other exactly what they need.
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 15, 2012 14:26:06 GMT -6
YES! Advocaat, I agree. You had a better summary for my TL; DR than I did. Bwahahah
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Post by sugarqueen on Nov 16, 2012 19:04:28 GMT -6
Let me start off by saying that I actually do like Maiko (boo-hiss) but I dislike the way it was presented in the show. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that I like its potential?
I've only come to like it because of fanfictions and roleplays that presented Mai and Zuko as a couple that might actually work, with effort and communication on their parts.
The main problem with canon!Maiko, as its already been said, is that there isn't much in the way of communication. Or, you know, effort and compromise.
Let me rebut a couple of arguments that I've heard.
1. Mai and Zuko have years as childhood friends to build on.
Um...no? Again, as its been said, Zuko and Mai, so far as we know, weren't actual friends. Mai was Azula's friend and the girl who had a crush on Zuko. I might be inclined to believe that Zuko had some sort of repressed crush on Mai, but then again, the symptoms he displayed could have just as easily been those of a young boy who was flustered and embarrassed at the situation his sister and her friends forced him into.
Have your headcanons and be happy with them, but don't try to tell me they actually had any onscreen buildup.
2. Mai understands Zuko more than anyone else.
Lol no.
I think Maiko's cute, I think it could work with effort, but neither of them put in the effort. If Mai understood Zuko more than anyone else, she would've listened to him instead of dismissing him and playing kissy face with him instead of--you know, talking.
Like couples should.
I understand that Mai has issues communicating and expressing her emotions and concern for others, but she should at least try for the boy she supposedly loves. No, I don't believe that she should put up with his bullshit, but I do believe that she should put in some effort to listen to him and help him through rough patches.
Which brings me to something that Zutara has that Maiko doesn't.
Mutual character development.
I don't think I could ever ship something that doesn't encourage development, of the strong sort, in its characters. Maiko involved some small strides--Zuko was the only one, so far as I recall, who could ever get Mai to smile from her heart.
But that was about it.
I believe that Zuko and Mai were in love, but sometimes love just isn't enough. Relationships can't thrive on love alone; they need communication and real, time consuming effort.
Zuko and Katara change each other and help one another develop as people in deep, moving ways. And that is why I'll continue to ship Zutara over Maiko.
Yeah I could go on but I think I'll shut up for now. This sounded a lot better in my head >.>
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 17, 2012 2:00:53 GMT -6
This is probably the biggest reason I don't support the ship. Looking past the lack of build up, the lack of development, the fact that they are unhealthy, the way it's forced and out of no where, and all these other factors, this is a HUGE problem for me.
Mai seems to lack opinion on everything, including morals. I sort of liked her dry humor and attitude. What I didn't like was how she was fine following Azula's orders, didn't seem to care when her brother went missing, and seemed to have no opinion what so ever about right and wrong.
She turned on Azula because of Zuko for sure. While it was intended to be romantic, I found it really off putting for Mai's character. It basically means that when Zuko is good, Mai is good. When Zuko is bad, Mai will be bad. Her character, which could have been really interesting, was really reduced down to nothing more than a girl for Zuko to end up with. A girl, who really, is one of the worst choices they could have paired him up with.
Katara is obviously my choice for Zuko. But Suki or heck, even Jin would be a better chioce than Mai. And to be honest, I don't even think Zuko is good for Mai, either. They depress me so badly that I feel sorry for them if they end up married in canon lol. That has to be the most miserable, lifeless marriage of all time. Poor Mai would be stuck as Fire Lady, stuck in the palace and surrounded by more walls. She's not the type to lead by Zuko's side. She's someone who will take the backseat and sulk in the shadows because it's all she's known, and Zuko really isn't the type to pull her out.
I always thought Mai should have left the Fire Nation completely, joining the Kyoshi Warriors. I feel like she'd feel so much better if she could just break free from the FN and the lifestyle of the nobles. As for her romantic interests, I always thought she needed someone almost like Sokka, someone who can break through her cold exterior and make her smile, ya know?
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 17, 2012 2:20:57 GMT -6
(almost) EVERYTHING that mrspettyfer said... except... I don't see the Mai-saving-Zuko thing as off-putting. I liked that, and I thought it showed her finally standing up for her own beliefs and opinions rather than someone else. Zuko didn't ask her to do it. Mai did it purely because she felt it was the right thing to do to save the man she thinks she loves.
But yeah... Totally an unhealthy relationship as I've already stated.
Also, yes. Mai doesn't need walls. She needs somewhere open to go find herself.
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