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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 17, 2012 2:34:09 GMT -6
Lol she thinks she loves. Well, I guess I would have liked her to stand up to Azula for reasons that have nothing to do with Zuko. But instead because Azula was wrong in her ways and beliefs, because the Fire Nation was wrong, etc. I wanted her to stand up for herself.
Mai's act doesn't really show anything about her own beliefs or opinions. Unless you mean her belief that she loved Zuko, lol. But regarding the war, Azula, the Fire Nation, her act doesn't reveal she has an opinion on any of it. I guess my problem is that, had Zuko not changed sides, I don't think Mai ever would have. And had Zuko's life not been in immediate danger, I don't think she would have stood up against Azula. So if Zuko jumped back to the "bad side" there is nothing to contradict that Mai wouldn't jump back as well.
Bryke had the perfect opportunity to really give Mai some independence. She could have stood up to Azula like Zuko did to Ozai during the Eclipse. But no...that didn't happen. *sad sigh* It could have been such a good speech too, lol. She could have brought up their childhood, how she was always Azula's sidekick and shadow, how she spent years doing what Azula wanted and following her orders, but now she was different and she answered to no one. How she learned the Fire Nation was wrong, that the Avatar should not be hunted, etc.
It could have been a nice moment. lol
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Post by kathrynlacey on Nov 17, 2012 2:39:32 GMT -6
The "thinks she loves" thing is because at fifteen, it's really hard to "know" you love someone... Just sayin'... I've thought I've been in love a lot during my teen years... Wasn't necessarily true.
I think her standing up to Azula was a long time coming. Remember that glare Mai shot to Azula when she walked passed her after Azula told her to go help Ty Lee untangle her braid when the princess interrupted the Maiko picnic? I think eventually, she would have stood up to her, but Zuko proved to be the catalyst.
I agree that she is a follow-the-leader sort of girl, though. Her leader changed from Azula to Zuko, and that enabled her to stand up to Azula, but I think eventually... even without that, she probably would have stood up for herself. Even while she's a follower, I get this weird impression that it's not really who she's meant to be or even who she wants to be. I feel like she does it simply because she's young, and it's safe, and she doesn't know better yet, you know?
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thefirelordzuko
Non-Bender
"Let them have Zutara!" - Marie Antoinette
Posts: 42
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Post by thefirelordzuko on Nov 17, 2012 2:55:45 GMT -6
I'm a shameless multishipper and my friend got me hooked to Maiko, so I ship it as well as Zutara. There are a lot of aspects about it that I like, though I do also agree with a lot of what mrspettyfer said. I think the show didn't put a lot of focus on Mai and I would've preferred that there would've been more focus on her, personally. To dig into her personality a bit more, the personality that had been pushed down by her strict parents and those rules enforced on her since she was a child. "Sit up straight", "Don't speak until spoken to", "Behave or else". Things like that don't make a person grow up to be the most open about their opinions, but they do still have them. That's why I like Mai, I dunno...maybe I'm just one that likes to interpret her opinions and motives like in "The Beach", the reason she got mad at Zuko when he was jealous, I believe, was that she was forced around and pushed by her parents since she was little so for Zuko to try and control her like that, it basically reminded her of it and she disliked it. That's just my take on one of her moments.
However, what I like AND dislike about Maiko is the "I love Zuko more than I fear you scene". It always gives my shipper heart a big punch in the gut and feels to the max, but I don't like how that scene was executed. I just...I wish they made that more about Mai coming to her decisions about Azula and breaking free from the prodigy because of her own epiphanies and "coming of age" sort fo thing; where she finds out who she is and realizes that being Azula's pet isn't something that interests her. While I certainly enjoyed that scene as it is, I just wish they didn't make Mai centered around Zuko. It makes me like and dislike Maiko at the same time, though it's mostly dislike. Sure, Zuko brings out the emotions in Mai as shown in many scenes, but like...it just seems so unhealthy for one's life to be focused on ONE guy. That was basically who Mai was when she was following Azula and after and I just wish they did more to her character and didn't make this ship that had the potential to be something really great if it was executed better and actually built up properly, not rushed - I felt that they slapped it on the fandom suddenly because they needed someone for Zuko.
I felt like I had a lot more to say on the subject, but I just love how REAL and RAW Zutara is. It is the purest of emotions and their interactions are real and deep.
On the topic of what my dear Shannon (sugarqueen) has said about the whole "understanding" thing, I agree. While Mai might ahve been present during a lot of the horrible moments in Zuko's life, that doesn't mean that she UNDERSTANDS what he's going through. She only knows of what happened better than most others who hadn't been there, but that can easily be learned if you just listen to Zuko's story. However Katara, as Shannon stated, has a mutual character development (or whatever her exact words were). They had both experienced the same type of thing with their mothers and how they dealt with their pain at the loss and because of that, they can relate to each other and actually understand the other and how to comfort them a lot better than others. That's a real connection that Zutara has and Maiko doesn't, I'm sorry to disappoint those who believe the opposite.
Gah I'm horrible at this. How about this: I agree with basically everying dynamojacks said, as I always do with all of the rants they do on Tumblr and on here (:
Anyway, I love Zuko and Katara and Mai and Zutara and Maiko, I just ship Zutara way more because there were things that bothered me about Maiko and the other ships.
ALSO, I can't believe I forgot this, but one of the main reasons that Maiko didn't do it COMPLETELY for me as Zutara did was COMFORTING. Oh Agni, don't get me started. I know a lot of Maiko shippers say that her dismissal of his rant when she asked if he was cold was her setting him back in like and not dealing with his shit and stuff like that, but seriously? I personally found that very cold, especially considering the circumstances, and wrong for Zuko at the moment. Unlike with Katara during Sozin's Comet, where she actually sat down with him and listened to him and COMFORTED him, rather than dismissing him at another crucial point of his life. He needed support. There is a time to set him in his place and there is a time to aid him and I feel like Katara balances those very well with our beloved firebender and with Mai she was just...not expressive enough? I don't know, but his urging for her to express herself during "The Beach" practially cried out to me that Zuko was looking for more, someone like Katara.
However, that's just something that irks me about how the relationship was put together. I still adore the characters and the ship, though mostly because of fanon and explinations from friends. (:
Maiko is still cute to me<3 *Though nothing really beats Zutara*
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 17, 2012 3:02:25 GMT -6
Yeah that was my whole thing. And Bryke could have done that AND included the "I love Zuko more than I fear you." Maybe if Mai listened to Zuko's conflicting problems about the Fire Nation for two seconds instead of blowing him off, then at least then she could have said "Zuko helped me realize the Fire Nation is wrong.." etc. But no. That couldn't happen either. /fail They could have reworked that scene and Maiko scenes leading up to it so that Zuko came across as someone who helped Mai come to her own sense of morals, helping her see good like Iroh had done for him, rather than someone who was the center of her world that basically made her morals for her. She didn't have to be so Zuko-centric. Someone should write that scene that way, in which Mai stands up for herself. Same here. I found Mai's storyline with Azula far more interesting. I wish Bryke had left the romance angle out with Maiko, and just focused on Azula's friendship with Mai and Ty Lee. I get so angry I can barely even type coherently lol. I wanted to punch Mai when she blew him off. And you know, I might have eventually gotten over it if there had been some scenes later on that showed she gave two shits what he was going through. But there never was. I got the impression she wanted to make out all the time or order servants around. lol Like, how hard is it to listen for five seconds? lol Sometimes Zuko needs pulled out of his brooding. But sometimes he needs someone to just listen to him. When Katara comforted him in the finale I kept thinking how that was how Mai should have acted. Katara didn't coddle Zuko by any means, but she listened and offered some advice. She cared enough to listen. And that's all he needed. My issue is that we saw Mai blow him off, but never saw her comfort/listen/offer an opinion to him. She was just...there. Someone for him to kiss. Oh it just makes me sad thinking about them. They depress me too much.
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Post by manzanasverdes on Nov 17, 2012 10:28:05 GMT -6
Maiko is like Makorra for me, something that looks great on paper, but was kinda butchered in the execution. I like it (both pairngs) well enough in fics and through some head!canon-heavy explanations, but on the screen? It lacks.
I think there was an important emotional connection there, these were two intensely lonely people with some shared history (which all gets compounded by the potential expectations placed on them by their surrounding environment, 'he's the Prince, she's a high-ranking noble lady, they've known each other since childhood, of course they'd end up together/ofc they'd be a reasonable match', but this is my own interpretation) who are, suddenly if you're Zuko, offered the chance of companionship and a certain amount of freedom, it's only natural they'd take it and build on that. So I don't contest that they may have loved each other, in that way teenagers love their first partner, but they never actually met each other halfway, they bonded, but that's not the same as clicking together. It's like they were building-stones on each other's emotional growth, y'know? something that was important and maybe even necessary, but wasn't meant to last.
I keep picturing this whole thing as two people in desperate need of acceptance and recognition of the persons they are and not the role they play in some grander scheme of things, who found each other and recognized a similar want in the other and decided this would be enough to go on, but are constantly throwing each other these emotional pebbles in the hope the other may catch them, except they keep bouncing off of the other's armor. There were all these attempts on both ends to reach out to the other and connect with them that just kept missing the proper openings; like two pieces of a puzzle that don't quite fit no matter how you angle them. (/Paragraph of Analogies)
And I agree with everyone who's said that Mai needs to go on a self-discovery journey of some kind. She needs to figure out what she wants and how to go after that, though I do think she does know what she wants (freedom, acceptance, true companionship), she just doesn't know what this all means in practical, tangible, real-life terms. Zuko was a major first for her (as she was for Zuko), and I just don't think she was prepared to deal with what it actually meant to be with someone in that way, maybe she'd had a fling or two with other boys in the past, but they weren't her childhood crush and they were most likely means to alleviate boredom/please her parents somehow (in my headcanon this is a huge motivator for Mai, her parents will let her go off with Azula because it is politically advantageous for them to have their daughter be besties with the Princess, likewise her relationship with Zuko; so Mai views a lot of her actions through those prisms, I mean, she chose her dress over going into the sludge in pursuit of Sokka and Katara despite Azula's direct order, after all. She does do things for herself, she just needs to start thinking in more panoramic, less immediate ways. She needs to define her own motivations outside of parental/societal expectations), and the emotional demands of a person like Zuko who is going though the changes Zuko was undergoing at that point in time, are kind of very high and she was not prepared for them. Later on, when she 'adapts' to his needs, she still goes about trying to meet them in the wrong way and Zuko is already too far gone from that mental space. Zuko on his end also tries very hard to please her and make her happy, he just doesn't know how and, while he may have persevered in this endeavor as he is known to do, he is also dealing with his own (really heavy) emotional load, so he pretty much blunders his way through the whole thing and ultimately sets it on the side in favor of dealing with his daddy issues. Plus I expect he was feeling supremely inadequate in his inability to please people all around.
Although they may be what they want, they're not what the other needs, and so they keep on missing each other's cues and timings. In the end, neither really got what they expected/wanted from the relationship, imo.
I also don't really know what to make of his entirely forgetting her in prison. I really, really don't. ::headdesks:: Like, she obviously saves your life, dude, you get a moment where it seems like you're looking back and regretting leaving her behind or something, but no, it was just the incoming realization that Azula had to have gotten to the prison somehow so AIRSHIP. Then you go and spend the entirety of the next episode worrying about another girl's opinion of you. Continue to fail at sparing a thought to the girl who might be dead for all you know (even though you have a valid, if kinda weak, excuse, what with the world ending and stuff) and then, when the storm's past YOU ARE SURPRISED SHE WAS LET OUT OF PRISON BY SOME UNKNOWN PARTY BECAUSE APPARENTLY IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO YOU TO DO IT YOURSELF. What even, Zuko.
I would expand on the comparison with Zutara but this is one long post as is, and I'm all thought-out by now. However, in my head, where Zuko and Mai were unable to meet each other, Zuko and Katara seem unable to miss each other. They just fell into place. They make sense to me in a more visceral level, whereas Maiko (and Kataang, for that matter) resonate on a more intellectual, 'this treat balances/counteracts this other treat and so: perfect for each other' kind of way. Like, I have to think about it, Zutara takes me nothing but watching (and drowning in feels, but w/e) to get them, they just happen to each other and bilateral character growth follows in their wake.
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 17, 2012 12:23:50 GMT -6
I know right? He was legit shocked when she showed up. "Mai, they let you out of prison?" Like really Zuko? lol And you're right that it's ironic that the next episode he's worrying about Katara. After Mai is imprisoned, we never see Zuko give Mai a second thought.
I think with the flashback they wanted to attempt to give us a backstory between Mai and Zuko, but all I saw was a backstory between Zuko and his mother, and Azula and her friends. And really, if they think showing Mai blush at 9 years old is going to mean we should take that seriously 6 years later they are crazy. Mai was a child. Zuko was a child who probably didn't give two shits about girls because he was constantly trying to please his father and train.
Fail on so many levels.
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Post by emletish on Nov 18, 2012 16:43:54 GMT -6
YOU ARE SURPRISED SHE WAS LET OUT OF PRISON BY SOME UNKNOWN PARTY BECAUSE APPARENTLY IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO YOU TO DO IT YOURSELF. What even, Zuko. I would expand on the comparison with Zutara but this is one long post as is, and I'm all thought-out by now. However, in my head, where Zuko and Mai were unable to meet each other, Zuko and Katara seem unable to miss each other. They just fell into place. They make sense to me in a more visceral level, whereas Maiko (and Kataang, for that matter) resonate on a more intellectual, 'this treat balances/counteracts this other treat and so: perfect for each other' kind of way. Like, I have to think about it, Zutara takes me nothing but watching (and drowning in feels, but w/e) to get them, they just happen to each other and bilateral character growth follows in their wake. Okay the first part made me laugh so hard. What even Zuko indeed! the prison-forgetting is a big deal for me too! He actually just plain old forgets her. He is really surprised that "they let you out?" - "THEY" answer to you now, Zuko buddy! the second part sort of encapsulates my feelings about the ships all together. Zuko and Katara cannot miss each other, nor do they ever fail to bring out an interesting part of each other's characters. All of their interractions just have so much meaning. for the story and for the characters. every time they were on screen together I was entranced! and that was when they were just friends. but I am so incredibly bored in Maiko and Kataang scenes. there is just np spark there.
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Post by likeadove on Nov 20, 2012 12:28:19 GMT -6
Can we talk about how Zuko FORGOT SHE WAS IN PRISON?! He FORGOT ALL ABOUT HER. She showed up for his coronation and he was surprised to see her. Like. Are you serious. And after the whole "I love Zuko more then I fear you" thing? Did Zuko take anytime to reflect or worry about her safety? Did he even consider that she might even be dead for HIM? Not at all. In fact, he spent the entirety of the next episode fretting over another girl.
Mai was a terrible girlfriend, but lets face it, Zuko was an even worse boyfriend. They brought out the worst in each other and that does not a healthy relationship make.
And, personally, Mai sets my gaydar off hardcore. She's very obviously a lesbian to me, so I can't even ship her with boys. Mai/Ty Lee are my third favorite Avatar couple. <33333
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 20, 2012 15:03:44 GMT -6
Can we talk about how Zuko FORGOT SHE WAS IN PRISON?! He FORGOT ALL ABOUT HER. She showed up for his coronation and he was surprised to see her. Like. Are you serious. And after the whole "I love Zuko more then I fear you" thing? Did Zuko take anytime to reflect or worry about her safety? Did he even consider that she might even be dead for HIM? Not at all. In fact, he spent the entirety of the next episode fretting over another girl. Mai was a terrible girlfriend, but lets face it, Zuko was an even worse boyfriend. They brought out the worst in each other and that does not a healthy relationship make. And, personally, Mai sets my gaydar off hardcore. She's very obviously a lesbian to me, so I can't even ship her with boys. Mai/Ty Lee are my third favorite Avatar couple. <33333 I FUCKING SWEAR THERE NEEDS TO BE A BIGGER FANBASE FOR TY MAI. And all of this, basically. I re-read the transcript for the episode and it's like, he pauses, and when Sokka asks what he's concerned about it's not even fucking about Mai. Literally, moments BEFORE she does her thing and gets subdued along with Ty Lee, Zuko motions with Sokka to get the fuck out. OBSERVE: And then they move to get out. Neither Sokka nor Zuko even make one mention of Mai after seeing her. Not. ONE. They even make it look like Zuko's pausing to reflect on her, but the next thing that comes out of his mouth IS ABOUT AZULA.So seriously he's all NOT STOPPING but not only that NOT EVEN THINKING about her. Not even saying how it's a shame that she's stuck down there. Not even showing any emotion towards her. Straight back to being practical and thinking of getting out of there. Not even a glance. Back. Yet we're supposed to accept that he's still in love with her. Just- AUREGHREGRFHJDRG And he's openly discussing his girl trouble the next day with Sokka, seriously I mean come the fuck onRomance storytelling. You're doing it wrong. You know what makes this worse? The fact that he didn't even know she was imprisoned (he wasn't there to see the big standoff with Azula since he was already making tracks), but he assumed it anyway. So he wasn't really concerned if she made her escape or not because he basically had it as a foregone conclusion that she wouldn't get out, AND THEN AFTER THAT, he forgot all about it anyway. Even the uncertainty must have got to him at some point. Could they not have even bothered to show us where he was so concerned about the unknown fate of his ex-girlfriend? Because all we got was that he was barely even grateful never mind concerned. AUREHG
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Post by harlowrd on Nov 21, 2012 18:03:02 GMT -6
And then they move to get out. Neither Sokka nor Zuko even make one mention of Mai after seeing her. Not. ONE. They even make it look like Zuko's pausing to reflect on her, but the next thing that comes out of his mouth IS ABOUT AZULA.You know what, I hadn't even noticed that. You're right, that's pretty awful. He's immediately thinking of a way to get everybody (a group that does NOT include Mai!) out of there; he doesn't seem to spare her another thought. Considering this on top of him forgetting her in prison completely afterwards, I'm actually indignant on Mai's behalf, to be honest. I wouldn't go back to him in a million years if I were her.
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