Zutara vs Maiko

[vassilissa]

The writing for Maiko makes me prefer Kataang's writing to be honest.Mrs Pettyfer was absolutely spot on about Mai's and Maiko's big moment. It was a shame how it has been portrayed.How could writers think it was even ok,I don't know. She just did it for Zuko,basically. I can see why people might find that romantic but for Mai as a stand-alone characters that was way too much to bear.Not to mention her dismessive ways of dealing with Zuko problem making him look like a drama queen,while he was actually been abused by his father.
MEH.
Poor Zuko I thought he was safe.I had a bad surprise when season3 started.

Nov 20, 2012 12:28:19 GMT -6 likeadove said:

Can we talk about how Zuko FORGOT SHE WAS IN PRISON?! He FORGOT ALL ABOUT HER. She showed up for his coronation and he was surprised to see her. Like. Are you serious. And after the whole "I love Zuko more then I fear you" thing? Did Zuko take anytime to reflect or worry about her safety? Did he even consider that she might even be dead for HIM? Not at all. In fact, he spent the entirety of the next episode fretting over another girl.

You know what, I hadn't even noticed that. You're right, that's pretty awful. He's immediately thinking of a way to get everybody (a group that does NOT include Mai!) out of there; he doesn't seem to spare her another thought. Considering this on top of him forgetting her in prison completely afterwards, I'm actually indignant on Mai's behalf, to be honest. I wouldn't go back to him in a million years if I were her.

Lmfao imagine the sex.
Mai-Zuko,what is this scar?
Zuko-Nothing,just the symbol I was gladly going to die to save Katara while you were in jail rotting for me without ever thinking about you. ::) ::)

[dynamojacks]

More on the storytelling front. I was actually convinced that this was the end of their story, for all these reasons. The fact that Zuko had silently acknowledged (if completely off-the-record/in headcanon) and then moved on from her was evidence enough. We were given no hint as to what he was thinking about her, if anything. I took that as closure on his part, I dunno about you.

So it's like 'the book's closed now', but Mai gets to do her thing anyway and overthrow Azula. She and Ty Lee BOTH get captured, so it's not like she alone is in trouble. At this point, we're feeling bad for them, but her 'love for Zuko' was what made her get this far, at least. So whether or not the feelings are reciprocated enough to rekindle said relationship, does it even matter? Should we even care? She did her thing, proved to herself she wasn't weak, and that she doesn't need to rely on anyone or be protected/terrorised. Granted, they could have EXPANDED on that, but the message I got was that she helped overcome some of her own issues on her own, and Zuko was a nice catalyst, I guess.
And then they go their separate ways after that.

We're given a weird kind of closure as far as their relationship (not so much fate) is concerned. Mai now accepts that Zuko has things to do (I think?), and she loves him enough to at least let him do those things on his own without hounding him. ..Y'know, something she could have done from the very beginning, but oh well. Honestly, the fact that it took HIS LIFE BEING IN DANGER to realise this is pretty fucked up.
Zuko had already come to the realisation that saving the world is more important than appeasing his girlfriend (or 'dragging her into it', which I bet is because she wouldn't understand, rather than because he was protecting her..). Yet in the case of Katara, saving the world AND appeasing her go hand in hand.
With Mai, it absolutely doesn't. Because she doesn't give two shits about the world let alone saving it.

[advocaat]

You raise a good point about Mai not giving two shits about the world. Not caring about the fate of the world would ultimately be a problem if she were to marry Zuko, since, you know, she'd be marrying into a rather important political role. A lack of interest in affairs outside the Fire Nation may have been fine while the world was at war, but peacetime is a whole different game. It isn't made clear just how much power the Fire Lady has, but I'd imagine that having a passion for pursuing the betterment of her nation and its position as a world power would be kind of important.

The fact of the matter is, Mai doesn't seem to be interested in politics or the rest of the world. She's interested in Zuko. She'll do her job, sure, but there's no passion there. She's not a leader and she doesn't pretend to be.

Katara is both a leader and a follower. She'll band behind someone for a good cause (the Avatar), but she won't take orders and she won't roll over for anyone. Moreover, she is very passionate about the state of the world. She fought hard for peace, and she did it because it was right, not for anyone else's sake.

[dynamojacks]

It frankly baffles me that people think Zutara are 'hilariously incompatible' when crap like this surfaces. Seriously. If Mai was portrayed a little differently.. I could MAYBE see Maiko working in the canon. But as it is when I look at them, the way the story is telling me, I think THEY'RE the ones who are hilariously incompatible. Mai cares too much about appeasing Zuko (in her own really awkward way no less) and not enough about the world. Zuko cares too little about her as a person, and a whole LOT about saving the world. Both are emotionally shut down, and both serve to only further shut the other down. Like, why would they even be drawn together except by the random off-chance that they were childhood sweethearts?
Sure because that's all you need for a long term relationship to last, LOL

That political thing is something I never even considered before. She's going to be under as much scrutiny as KATARA is in the royal family. The Fire Nation is a very proud nation and likely won't stand for Mai's apathy. Katara, although she won't be respected and it'll take some time, she'll be like the catalyst for change and acceptance among all nations. She's a determined soul and no matter what she'll see it through. Mai would probably get bored, try to get Zuko's attention and distract him from his duties :/

[manzanasverdes]

Nov 23, 2012 4:51:21 GMT -6 dynamojacks said:

That political thing is something I never even considered before. She's going to be under as much scrutiny as KATARA is in the royal family. The Fire Nation is a very proud nation and likely won't stand for Mai's apathy. Katara, although she won't be respected and it'll take some time, she'll be like the catalyst for change and acceptance among all nations. She's a determined soul and no matter what she'll see it through. Mai would probably get bored, try to get Zuko's attention and distract him from his duties :/

In my mind, Mai would be an okay choice as far as the nobility/upper class is concerned, if for no other reason than because she's one of them and would represent nil challenge to the status quo (which Zuko has already upended, btw), but the people that make up the actual Fire Nation, the ones that would be more directly affected by her 'rule' (which maybe only extends to her influence on Zuko (?)) simply because they have basically no voice and no one is likely to speak for them, would not benefit from such apathy. Maybe these people (lol The People) would be down with her because she's FN and this has always been the way things were done, but in my mind, were Katara to be put in the same situation, she'd be 'the people's princess', their champion, the one looking out for them, and this would give her an huge advantage whenever dealing with snobitty snobby FN nobility, like, she would be up against a lot of hard faces and ill will from them, but she'd still have the support of the majority of the country. Not to mention the fact that Katara would not just take a backseat, if she sees shit going down that should be going down, she's gonna dig her heels in and find the way to stop that on the spot, Mai would too in all likelihood, the thing is that where Katara's meter would be set on The Greater Good, Mai's would be on Zuko's Comfort and this is just not a politically viable choice for the wife of a ruler.

Like someone upthread said, Mai is not a leader. And whether she gets any measure of power becomes irrelevant when she's married to a person whose main goal is to rescue/improve his country in such a large, yet intimate (we're talking about overturning a century of propaganda, here), scale. Besides, this person is Zuko whose issues are legion and who needs tons and tons of cathartic sessions that don't necessarily revolve around or even include any amount of make-outs (maybe some hand-holding, bit of cuddling even, but definitely not the hot and heavy 'let's forget about the world and just be in our bubble' thing Mai was going for).

You know, I used to think he was really, really bad at caring for people, (who weren't his uncle) when I watched him with Mai the first time around, but the thing is that later on he proves that, while his need for emotional support is huge, he is actually able to reciprocate and give just as much as he's taking. He just wasn't able to do that with Mai because he wasn't really getting any kind of solid emotional ground to stand on (on which to grow the seeds of his own stability and confidence and the beautiful blossoms of happiness aren't you GLAD I came up with this horrible analogy? le facepalm), she wasn't giving anything...she herself wasn't really getting much, either, was she?

I feel like they are an extremely superficial pairing. Her calm demeanor is supposed to cool his jets, but what she does is make him turn his head away from whatever's got him all up in arms or whatever, until such a time when he can get bothered by it again, in the meantime he'll stumble his way into trying to make sure he pleases the only person he can be more or less certain is on his side; Zuko is supposed to be the only one able to draw her out of her shell and make her genuinely smile, in the end what he actually does for her is provide a vessel into which she can pour all her energy and keep her from boredom/herself, not to mention how 'unreachable' he becomes as time progresses and she's invested so much on him it cannot be easy on her mental well-being. This a good, healthy, long-term relationship does not make. This reduces both characters to their mores salient traits without considering the fact that there's a source for them in the first place, in the end those traits are behaviors that express internal make ups that are, ultimately, incompatible (at least in a romantic scenario. They could still be 'of service' to each other while being friends, say); there's no constructive exchange here, and someone as insecure as Zuko needs to have a steady source of advice and the security to know that the person who is closest to him shares his ideals and validates him/them.

They're just terrible for each other! At least as presented in canon. They could work (if you throw Katara into the mix and make gorgeous OT3 of sit the fuck down and open up about/listen to/care about shit and then there can be group hugs which may or may not escalate into threesomes, but w/e), after much growing-up and soul-searching

[azuremoon]

Everyone has made such interesting points!

Zuko is someone special, not just because of hos position, but as a person. He has been through so much but I believe his heart is there, and strong. He can care so much. That's why he'll make such a good Fire Lord. That's why he needs someone who also has a heart. Mai isn't a bad person. I don't hate her as much as I did when I first saw the series. Lol. I really didn't like her then. I couldn't see how it would ever work. Now I can see that, with a LOT of work on BOTH sides, it COULD work. But Zutara doesn't need that EXTRA work to make THEM work. They have to work at it like any relationship would, but there's just a whole different kind of work that Maiko would take to make work.

Katara needs Zuko and Zuko needs Katara. They balance each other out. As natural opposites, they bring something to the table that Mai can't bring. They challenge each other. They constantly bring out the best in each other, make each other think. Of course there will be moments where they argue, where they fight, but it will do good in the end. It will make the other think more about something. And they can keep each other in good physical shape with bending practice....though there are other such things that could be done as well but anyways. <<

They care for each other. Zuko needs a partner with emotion, with spirit. That will make him the happiest and it will also be the best for his nation. They fit. You don't have to think about it, but they fit. Before I'd even finished watching the series I shipped Zutara. I noticed how they fit together and how it would make sense. It's been there for a long time.

Also, for Katara's sake, Zuko is good for her. He makes her think, he challenges her as much as she does him. She needs someone more mature than Aang. That isn't to say that Aang couldn't grow up and wouldn't mature in time. I'm sure he could. But there's still something...basic...about the way that Zutara fits together. It's so simple but more than that all at once. She needs someone who will call her on her stuff. She has moments where she will get so caught up in something, ranting, or thinking about it in a way. (By the way I love Katara) But Zuko will not just let her go thinking that's best.

She has to be a certain way with Aang. She can't be who she wants to necessarily. I feel like with Aang, she'll be restricted. She needs to be able to be herself. Aang has certain ideas about her and I'm not sure he'd know what to do if she broke them. She can let out her feelings and Zuko will be there. He'll give her freedom to be herself.

Also, she mothers almost everyone. And she does it with Aang too. But she doesn't HAVE to with Zuko. He wouldn't really let her either. But she'd also balance it out by being someone that could really take care of him (not in a maternal sense) in a way that no one else would with him. It's sweet and spicy. Just like them.

[mrspettyfer]

Nov 22, 2012 15:51:54 GMT -6 advocaat said:

You raise a good point about Mai not giving two shits about the world. Not caring about the fate of the world would ultimately be a problem if she were to marry Zuko, since, you know, she'd be marrying into a rather important political role. A lack of interest in affairs outside the Fire Nation may have been fine while the world was at war, but peacetime is a whole different game. It isn't made clear just how much power the Fire Lady has, but I'd imagine that having a passion for pursuing the betterment of her nation and its position as a world power would be kind of important.

The fact of the matter is, Mai doesn't seem to be interested in politics or the rest of the world. She's interested in Zuko. She'll do her job, sure, but there's no passion there. She's not a leader and she doesn't pretend to be.

Katara is both a leader and a follower. She'll band behind someone for a good cause (the Avatar), but she won't take orders and she won't roll over for anyone. Moreover, she is very passionate about the state of the world. She fought hard for peace, and she did it because it was right, not for anyone else's sake.

Exactly. All of this. The problem with Mai basing her ideas of the world based on Zuko means that if Zuko decides he wants to follow Sozin's steps, Mai will follow that lead. Just like she followed Azula, even though Azula was wrong. Basically if Zuko is on the good side, Mai will be on the good side. If he's on the bad side, she'll be on the bad side.

For me that's very unappealing in a character, for them to have no opinon of right or wrong, but rather latch onto someone else's. And since she will be in a position of power, that's even more frightening.

Frankly I'm shocked everyone was okay with her and Ty Lee, considering they WERE Azula's sidekicks. They aren't exactly innocent.

Katara would definitely be better in that role, because like you said, she's a leader AND a follower. I actually think Suki would have been a good choice as well in canon, if Toph and Sokka had been a thing. I feel like Zuko's wife obviously should be someone he loves and cares about, but I think she needs to be supportive and offer advice and opinions because we know Zuko is always second guessing himself. I want him to marry a woman who leads the NF by his side, not someone who watches silently from the shadows.

[chromeknickers]

I love this comic of Mai and how Maiko wouldn't work in the long-run:

SPOILER: Click to show

I honestly believe a relationship between the two isn't good for either one of them. As the Fire Lady Mai would just become a bird in a gilded cage again while Zuko would be left to his own devices with no one to really confide in, share his doubts and weaknesses with, and no real outward support (as Mai's idea of cheering Zuko up is having him order the help around and not actually, you know, discuss things).

[chromeknickers]

Doesn't it just make you fall in love with Mai's character? I thought it was amazing too because I actually have a scene like this written for the second book of FC and I mention just as much in the Mai chapter of FC, Political Maelstrom. (And, yay! You're going to tackle this in UF!)

Mai just has so much potential - so much - and the show just compartmentalised it and then managed to ignore the confession she gave at The Beach, as though somehow living for Zuko would be different than living for her parents.

[mrspettyfer]

I agree completely. I actually feel bad for her AND Zuko because their relationship is just so unhealthy and it makes me depressed just thinking about it. The FN is really like a prison for her. Now some, like Katara, would take the role as Fire Lady and use it to their advantage. Like I can imagine Katara making treaties with other nations for peace alongside Zuko, and going to the smaller villages and helping them rebuild, etc. Mai just doesn't strike me as someone who cares enough to do those things. [Doesn't make her bad, it's just not her thing.] I think she would literally become a shadow again. Which is sad.

I thought they should have had her join the Kyoshi Warriors. That way she's doing something she likes--fighting--while getting away from the FN. She needs to find herself before being thrown into a relationship. The creators really turned her into nothing more than a love interest for Zuko. I was far more interested in her friendship with Azula, actually, and wish they had left out the love interest part all together.