ladyavatar
Pro-Bender
Ozai Fangirls, Represent!
Posts: 418
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Post by ladyavatar on Nov 13, 2012 14:08:24 GMT -6
I have a wish list item I'll drop here: I wish longer Zutara plots would incorporate Ozai as more than a force of pure evil. Every person has complications, and it makes me infinitely sad that what we received in the show was an undeveloped character who became classic plot fodder as a purely evil, one-dimensional villain. Zuko's complicated relationship with Ozai (in that he wants to be as not like him as possible and yet is obviously forced into the same leadership role that shaped his father) combined with Katara's keen eye for the good in all people could make for some interesting post-war plots, all within a Zutara overarching arc. Come to think of it, it makes me tremendously sad that no story I've ever come across ever tries to redeem Ozai in any post-war context (unless I've missed some, in which case I would love recommendations).
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ladyavatar
Pro-Bender
Ozai Fangirls, Represent!
Posts: 418
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Post by ladyavatar on Nov 13, 2012 14:40:08 GMT -6
I'm sure there were other emotions happening behind those actions (we see glimpses of that when Zuko and Ozai are at the pond after Ursa's disappearance), but the difference is that he always chose to ignore the softer side of himself; he cared about power, about perfection. And this realization is immensely important. We get glimpses of Ozai as he might be outside of the public eye, behind closed doors, but in the show we almost always see him either in war meetings or carrying out battle plans or the such. For a redemption fic to work, we would have to figure out what those other emotions behind the scenes really were. You're absolutely right: to bring readers to care about what happens to someone who has done the evil things shown to us during the show would require great lengths and great care on the part of the writer. Which is exactly why I would love to see someone take this project on (aside from what I myself am plotting, but with my wordiness it's going to take another 300,000 words to convincingly complete the journey). A more efficient writer might have even better luck. XD
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chromeknickers
Bender
I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am!
Posts: 216
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Post by chromeknickers on Nov 13, 2012 15:23:06 GMT -6
I couldn't write an Ozai redemptive fic either. I just really despise what he did to his family. I find when a character intentionally harms his children, there is no redemption in his character. The only thing you can really write is how he came to be the way he was. You can make him sympathetic before his "turn". As Zuko said in The Beach episode, they were once all happy. You could write the prequel to that. But, yeah, I have no sympathy for him. Unlike someone "evil" like Lucius Malfoy. We can all admit he was an evil prat, but he loved his family. There is some redemption in that.
I wouldn't mind Ozai being utilised in more Zutara fics, but I honestly hate it when the author has Zuko kills his father. It makes absolutely NO sense to me from a political standpoint. Patricide does not go over well with the people.
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Post by emletish on Nov 14, 2012 6:49:39 GMT -6
I couldn't do an Ozai redemption fic either. Sorry hon. The man doesn't just abuse his kids...he plans the abuse. It does not just occur in the heat of the moment, He actually calculates assulting his children. What Ozai does to Zuko in the agni kai is completely pre-meditated. Ozai is not having a moment of anger. No, he calmly burns half his son's face off. Ozai chose to do that and never regretted it (well we are lead to believe he never regretted it. he certainly never shows any remorse). That crosses the moral event horizon for me. I can see no redemption for Ozai after that.
I can see redemption for Azula. I'm trying to incporporate a better ending for her into my series. But I have also thrown Ozai in the fictional dungeon. Just can't see anything redeemable in him.
actually have a great plot bunny that would also put him in the dungeon again.
*plot bunny*
in this plot bunny, it would actually ignore Korra, and go along a different tangent. involving Aang and the consequences of spirit bending. (because there have to be some dangnamit!) In this fic, Aang would live longer than even Kyoshi. The spirit bending would have enhanced his life force ( a bit like the tom hanks character in the green mile).
They'll be much Gaang-wide loving. He'll see all the original gaang grow old and eventually die (Zutara will be together, as will Suki and Sokka. There will be a brief period where Aang and Toph are the only two left of the original Gaang and they'll have a fling)...but then due to reincarnation, the Gaang will come back to him. He'll find them all again. Sometimes their bendings/nationalities will change - but Aang will be able to recognise their spirits.
Zuko and Katara will be drawn together in their next life, despite being on opposite sides of some conflict, possibly benders vs non benders and one of them is a non-bender (gosh I really don't like how the whole equalist thing was dealt with in Korra, so I'd like to see that tackled in a more meaningful manner). Aang will remember how he felt a bit miffed when Zuko and Katara first got together, but then think a few deeply philosophical things about the inevitablitly of their love.
there would be a bit about how Aang is acting as a father figure/mentor figure to the re-incarnated Gaang members and how this mirrors how they were parental figures and mentors to him when he was younger.
Aang will get to revisit some of his past decisions. He will meet Ozai again, and give him one warning, no second chances. actually this whole plot bunny came to me watching Dr Who. I could see the following dialogue happen. Reincarnated Ozai would make some sort of self aggrandising comment, and about how he knows that Aang is too merciful to be a real threat to him. Aang would say something like "I'm so old now....I used to have so much mercy." I think this would show nice growth for Aang.
When Aang finally dies - all the new Gaang will be around him and he will take comfort in the fact that he will find them again.
If I were a time-lord myself, I would go get myself some more time so I could write this baby. but Alas I do not, so I thought I would share it.
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ladyavatar
Pro-Bender
Ozai Fangirls, Represent!
Posts: 418
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Post by ladyavatar on Nov 14, 2012 7:28:35 GMT -6
I wouldn't mind Ozai being utilised in more Zutara fics, but I honestly hate it when the author has Zuko kills his father. It makes absolutely NO sense to me from a political standpoint. Patricide does not go over well with the people. Totally agree. This always makes me use my favorite phrase: "rah rah rah u, wat r u doing?! raaaaaaaaaaah!!!" Ozai chose to do that and never regretted it ( well we are lead to believe he never regretted it. he certainly never shows any remorse). That crosses the moral event horizon for me. I can see no redemption for Ozai after that. So it seems like the general consensus is that, no matter what any writer tries to do ever, there is no possible way on the face of the earth that any fanfiction could ever redeem Ozai? Hmm. Now what is more delicious than a most beautiful challenge like that? XD I hope one day to prove you all wrong! Ha! Also, I might have to shop around for some time lord powers to see if I can grant some to you because that actually sounds like a totally fabulous idea and I would absolutely read this story. I wish there was more depth to the Equalists in the show, and especially to the fact that they would not just give up once Amon was out of the picture.
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Post by harpalyce on Nov 15, 2012 23:21:58 GMT -6
Sadly... I just can't swing redemption for Ozai in my head. It'd take a lot of what I would feel were contrivances. And this is coming from someone whose pet fanfiction darling is a story about redeemed Vader. Yes, I categorize Darth Vader as a better dad than Ozai, by like a factor of ten. Goddammit Ozai.Right, so, I just typed a lot about this on tumblr. I may as well post it here too. PLOTBUNNIES FOR THE PLOTBUNNY GOD. Have a plotbunny + bonus doodle of Iroh and Zuko: Zuko actually sticks with the good guy thing during the season 2 finale, enabling Aang and co. to escape much more easily but coming away seriously fucked up himself. He only barely survives thanks to Iroh mamaburr ragin’ and they narrowly escape Ba Sing Se. They take refuge at an abbey out in the Earth Kingdom countryside, and gangrene sets in to where Zuko loses the rest of his leg (his foot having been straight-up severed by some earthbending). He slips in and out of a fevered haze for most of this time before finally waking up, and his first question is along the lines of 'uncle iroh, why can't I feel my leg?' in a heartbreaking moment of showing that underneath Zuko's tough teenager persona there's still a really scared kid under all of that. Meanwhile Aang skipped over the being mostly dead for a month bit and has been training; he is still anxious to find a Firebending master. Though some various contrivance they end up catching word of the two hiding at the abbey. Katara especially feels guilty that Zuko basically flung himself in front of Azula and the Dai Li to buy them time to escape, and Iroh is still a phenomenally respected firebender, so they go there. Iroh understands the importance of what Aang needs to do and agrees to teach him, though it’s obvious to even the Gaang how sorrowful Iroh is: realistically everyone expects Zuko to die of lingering complications from his injuries, even if he is up and limping around on crutches, and for Iroh it’s as if he’s losing a son all over again. Iroh isn’t going to leave Zuko’s side but it’s incredibly painful for him to watch. Zuko meanwhile develops almost a deathwish. It’s presented that someone is going to have to take the Fire Nation throne after Ozai is toppled, and he bitterly rejects the idea, saying the people would never tolerate a cripple on the throne, much less a cripple who has been so disfigured by his own father. He still wants to help the Gaang as much as he can - he just ends up very frustrated very quickly about his new limitations, and expects to die in upcoming battle (to the point of almost looking forward to it). At some point Katara accuses or implies that he regrets his decision to fight alongside them at Ba Sing Se, because she still has reservations about his motives. He replies that he does have a lot of regrets, but it’s obvious they’re all at his (supposed) failings - “if I had just trained more, if I had just dodged better, if I had prepared” - and not towards the Gaang. Instead he’s pretty firmly wrapped up in his own self-loathing. It becomes clear he’s starting to view himself as someone who doesn’t even have a chance at a ‘normal’ life being a tea server, so he’s only good for cannon fodder. So as Iroh trains Aang, Katara very much firmly pegs Zuko as someone in her mind who needs help. And we all know how Katara tries to fix things. Cue Katara slowly convincing Zuko that he isn’t a broken and worthless person. …possibly with kisses, which utterly flummox and fluster him. Up to you whether Zuko eventually heals from all of his injuries, or if Katara gets to watch his slow and inevitable decline and finally death. Depends on how much angst you want. It could swing one way or the other and either end with Zuko's coronation as Firelord as he realizes his injuries don't make him hideous but can instead be seen as proof he stands up for what he believes in... ...or it could end with Iroh sobbing over Zuko's funeral pyre while Sokka hugs Katara and the siblings bond over losing their first loves.
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Post by harlowrd on Nov 16, 2012 20:36:14 GMT -6
I'd love to read a Zutara story set in modern-day Republic City (i.e. if Korra's time is equivalent to the 1930's, then this one would happen during the 2000's), with the Avatar world evolving exactly the way it would in canon, but Zuko and Katara are born much later. It'd be an interesting twist on the usual AU plots, I think...I'd love to see Republic City and the Avatar world adapted to our times, and how Katara and Zuko might exist in it while still retaining their basic personality traits and as much of their backstories as possible.
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Post by mrspettyfer on Nov 16, 2012 21:36:50 GMT -6
I would love to see more Ursa/Ozai stories. I find them extremely fascinating. How they got together leaves a lot to the imagination.
Was it an arranged marriage? How did they meet? How was Ozai when he was younger? Etc.
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ladyavatar
Pro-Bender
Ozai Fangirls, Represent!
Posts: 418
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Post by ladyavatar on Nov 16, 2012 21:42:10 GMT -6
I would love to see more Ursa/Ozai stories. I find them extremely fascinating. How they got together leaves a lot to the imagination. Was it an arranged marriage? How did they meet? How was Ozai when he was younger? Etc. This. This right here. I want this because of reasons and that's that.
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Post by carcinogeneticist on Nov 18, 2012 10:24:19 GMT -6
Oh my fucking god, I came onto this thread looking for legitimate plot ideas and instead I found myself stumbling directly into the trenches of a full-blown Ozai hatestorm the size of planet fucking Jupiter. Strap on a helmet, I'm going in guns blazing, anger stretched out to the point of no return, bon-ire so big it could consume a thousand bags of fuel and still have enough left over to act as agent orange in some fucked-up action movie.
I physically cannot comprehend the hate that Ozai receives. Not the hate itself, but the type of hate. I fucking hate that douchecanoe beyond all reasonable belief, but at least I hate him for what he actually did, not how he was portrayed in the goddamn story.
Quick question for anyone with enough mental power to focus his eyes on a television: Who were the major protagonists of ATLA? I hope on all that is good and not-brain-dead that the answer is Aang, Katara, and Zuko or some combination/variation thereof. What do all of these characters have in common? Oh right, they hate Ozai. Zuko hates Ozai because he's a hundred fucking percent certain that Ozai caused his mother's disappearance, and because Ozai burned his face. Fine. Aang hates Ozai because Roku and literally everyone else has told him to hate Ozai. And Katara just hated the Fire Nation in general for taking her mother away from her, which is why that whole shit in the crystal catacombs went down. Do you think they're going to step back and view him from an unbiased third perspective? No. Hell no. Hell fucking no.
The story treats Ozai like the hellspawn of death itself with some unyielding evil and destruction thrown in for good measure. Every story needs an obvious villain; a kids' show is no place to explore the grey moral territory of a war to the extent required. Sure, you can have enough anti-heroes and anti-villains to drown a moderately sized city, but you need a villain to be overcome in the end. In LoK, Amon was bastardised, and the Equalist revolution flipped from being a sympathetic civilians' uprising to a full-scale terrorist war, from an area of grey morality - the show itself seemed to whisper silently that perhaps the Equalists were fucking right after all - into "Team Avatar versus the baby-eating, people-murderising faceless mooks". They need a bad guy. Ozai was their bad guy, so they could redeem anyone else they chose to [Zuko, Azula in The Search, Jet, etc. etc.] as long as Team Avatar kicked the bad guy's ass hard enough that his descendants were born with bright red footprints on their asscheeks.
Basically, when you're trying to fucking write a character or figure out his goddamn emotions and motivations, you'd better fucking step back and take your bias off like you just lost five consecutive rounds of strip poker on.
So what the fuck has Ozai done, anyway? 0) Caused Ursa to leave. 1) Burned Zuko's face. 2) Continued a war he inherited. 3) Attempted to use Sozin's Comet to defeat the other nations. 4) Tried to kill Zuko with lightning. 5) Nearly murdered the Avatar.
Well shit, looks like an overwhelming amount of irredeemable awful qualities, right? Sure. I fucking hate him. But let's take a trip into the dirty waters of his perspectives. Keep your arms, legs, and other limbs inside the submarine at all times. Complimentary peanuts will be served at the end of the voyage. No fighting or I swear I will turn this sub around.
Iroh was Azulon's favourite. Iroh's significantly older than Ozai; he was the heir to the throne; and he was an accomplished general. When his descendant died, Iroh was fucking broken up about it to the point where it's implied he committed suicide. Ozai requested to become the heir, and Azulon, instead of merely rejecting the request, decided to order Ozai to kill Zuko. Who the fuck does that? That's like if I went to Taco Bell and ordered tacos while they gave me burritos, so next time that guy came over to the place where I was working and asked for grubcorn, I gave him fucking cyanide. What the actual fuck? And do we ever actually see Ozai agreeing to kill Zuko? Unless my memory is worse than a cuttlefish's, I highly fucking doubt it. We never get anything except that Ursa suddenly does something or other than kills Azulon and causes her to flee. Did she directly kill him? Did Ozai agree to it? Did he even know? Was he planning to kill Zuko? Did Ursa overreact? We don't fucking know. The next morning Ozai's being comforted by a tree - so he did have it in him to care for Ursa, big whoop - and Zuko is a little kid who lost Ursa. Zuko blames Ozai because he's too young to understand anything different, and Ozai subconsciously ties Ursa's departure to Zuko still being there instead of her.
That's pretty fucking sad. Ursa loved Zuko more than she loved Ozai. That's got to fucking sting, jesus.
Anyway, even if it's not a conscious decision, Ozai's mind tells him that the love of his life would still be here if only the shit with Zuko hadn't gone down. This sort of anger broils and roils in him for three years until he burns his son's face and ascends the echeladder of douchebaggery into the vaulted zones of Feminine Hygiene Product of the Year Award-recipient.
In their desperate attempts to hate Ozai with all of their slimy pink guts, people tend to forget that Ozai was only Fire Lord for, what, six fucking years? He inherited a century-long war he hadn't started or asked for. And he couldn't exactly fucking end it. See, there are no good or bad sides in war. If Ozai were to suddenly pull out of the war entirely, the Earth Kingdom would drop a counterattack-revenge on their asses more quickly than I could flip a table. Considering my table-flipping grandninjamasterlotus expertise that's high risk indeed. And that would mean abandoning the colonies, which have been there for nearly a century. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Unless he wanted to dump his own people and leave the entire Fire Nation open to a massive attack, he had no choice but to keep the war going. Zuko got a get-out-of-jail-free card because the Avatar himself showed up, took his hand, and told the world that Zuko was going to be a good Fire Lord. The Avatar told the Earth Kingdom not to fight back. And even so the entire fucking Promise trilogy was about Zuko nearly siccing the Fire Nation army and Kuei shitting himself as he attempted to take over the colonies by force. If literal shitloads of trust and Avatar goodwill did not exist between the leaders, the war would have broken out all over again. Ozai couldn't stop the war early. You want to vomit candy-red rage over someone, do it on Sozin, not Ozai. Not to mention that the entire economy of the Fire Nation for a century had been geared strictly for the purposes of war.
Reminds me of home.
Now Ozai tries to kill Zuko with lightning. Douchenozzle alert, douchenozzle alert. Ozai isn't a good guy. I'm not being sarcastic; he's not a fucking good guy. Now, his perspective. You've attempted to subconsciously forgive your son for being the catalyst that drove the one true love of your life away from you. He has sat by your right hand side and helped you plan the final offensive strike that at last swing the war in your favour permanently and ensure that the Fire Nation people will never be harmed again. Maybe you even believe that a total takeover of the world will bring peace or whatever. Suddenly your son shows up while you are powerless and tells you, straight up, that he is going to rebel against every single fucking thing you've ever told him, that he's going to join forces with the Avatar - whom you probably think of as a beast straight from the Spirit World waiting to rip your throat out with his thunderous tornadoes and superhuman speed - and that he's going to help the Avatar destroy your country. At that point, your choices boil down to: 1) Your family. 2) Your duty to your country, your crown, your people. If this were a real-world situation and a ruler of any kind picked (1), that ruler would be called a piece of shit and unfit to lead and bluh bluh. If I were the leader of a country and one of my friends abruptly turned traitor on me, I'd at least jail him. Trying to kill him counts against Ozai, sure - see: fucking douchecanoe - but you have to remember he was trying to honour his, you know, fucking duty. And killing the Avatar was the same fucking thing. He's been told his entire life the Avatar is his number one enemy and the biggest threat to the Fire Nation. The rest of Team Avatar advised Aang to kill Ozai back. Don't be a fucking hypocrite about the situation.
But we don't see any of that because it's all from Zuko and Aang's points of views, therefore Ozai is bad guy and everyone can hate him.
I'm going to address the rest of the points later, because my desire to smash my head against the nearest wall is so powerful I can no longer resist its gravitational pull, and I really have to get away from this before my incredulity reaches critical mass and collapses into a black hole to destroy all life in the galaxy. I'm not done yet. The obese female has not yet finished her melody.
And here are your fucking complimentary peanuts. Thank you for flying Con Air.
-carcinoGeneticist
One more thing: Ozai was worse than Vader? Vader force-choked his own wife, killed every fucking "youngling" and "padawan" by hand, and then chops his son's limbs off to teach him a lesson. Ursa left out of necessity; Ozai only killed people from his armchair without every seeing the true consequences of his actions and scarred his son in a way that didn't actively cripple him. If Darth fucking Vader can be redeemed even given all of that shit, then denying Ozai redemption is like sentencing your descendant to execution because he pushed another kid over and you apparently equate that with third-degree murder.
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