Zuko FC

[thefirelordzuko]

Nov 6, 2012 21:33:01 GMT -6 @boogum said:

It's that last line that really sums it up for me. He tries to be heartless like Azula and Ozai, but Zuko's determination never quite reaches the point of having him willingly want to hurt someone. He always hurts himself more in the process, which is why we see him pull back so much. Even before his 'metamorphosis', he knew that he didn't want to hurt people. Ozai might have thought Zuko was destined to capture the Avatar, but I can't help but think sometimes that, even if Zuko did capture Aang in Season 1 and took the boy back to the Fire Nation, he would not have been able to be happy. He would have known what he did was wrong and possibly would have done another Blue Spirit rescue mission to make it 'right' again.

I completely agree. Zuko was never one to be purposefully malicious like Ozai and Azula, he never wanted to harm people. I do believe that if he would've returned the Avatar he would've still felt off about teh whole thing, angry as he had been in the begining of Book 3. Because he knows what the right thing is, inside him he always does and always had, his vision had merely been blinded by this want and need to be loved by his father. He was doing what he thought would gain his father's love, what his father wanted, because after Lu Ten and his mother were gone...there really wasn't anybody left.
I mean, there was Iroh, but after losing his only friend and confidant and the cousin he looked up to (at least, I believe he looked up to his cousin in many ways), Zuko shut off. He ahd always wanted to praise from his father, to be the son he wanted, and that only strengthened when Ursa was out of the picture. So it fueled his conflictions within him as he grew because, I believe, Zuko always knew what was right and what was wrong...he was just having trouble TRUELY seeing it.

But he was never a bad guy, as some people believe. I mean, remember in Zuko alone? He helped Lee, took the blame for him about the soldiers in the begining and then aided his family throughout while saving his ass in the end, and he also knew that it was wrong to steal food from a pregant lady, so he didn't do it. While stealing was, in the first place, wrong...he isn't heartless. If he was, he would've taken the food to feed himself. But he didn't.
Also, he outreached his arm to General Zhao at the end of Book 1, when the older man was being taken by the Water Spirit Godzilla Avatar State Thingy. Even when fighting his opponent, a man who attempted to kill him and endangered the lives of many, Zuko tried to save him in the end.

I really liked this quote you used, the ending line:

Because he's only trying to do what he must, but he knows in his heart that he should be doing what is right.

It really describes Zuko so perfectly.

Taking it slightly personal as you did, I loved Zuko from the begining. Well, not the BEGINING begining, but he grew on me very quickly. With me loving Draco from Harry Potter so much at the time, it was easy for me to see the troubles in Zuko's life, especially at the episode "The Storm". This episode, again, shows just how human Zuko is and that he's not a bad guy, only hardened by traumatic events and confused. "The Storm" really did it for me. I mean, I listened to Aang's part (Aang is one of my favorite characters and I respect him a lot), but every time it switched to Zuko I got instantly excited. I wanted to know more about him and with every second leading up to the point where he caught the crewman from falling, I fell in love with him more and more.

Well, this is all taken from an older me's perspective, not me when the show came out. When I was younger, and still now, we didn't have cable so I couldn't watch many TV shows, only PBS kids and stuff like that, so I didn't get into Avatar until recently. I'm actually glad I didn't watch it when I was younger, I appreciate it much more now than I would have and see the complexity in the show. It really is beautiful.

Anyway, Zuko grew on me more and more and after "The Storm", he was my favorite character. Then came all these Katara and Zuko interactions and Zutara was slipping under my skin fast. I didn't exactly say like "Oh these two are perfect right now as they are" with the "I'll save you from the pirates" thing. I shipped them, I just believed that there needed to be some crutial character development in Zuko and relationship development between the both of them, as there was. And it was beautiful. I still shipped them, squealed at every thought and action and memory that might indicate them getting together in the end (even though I knew Kataang was endgame), but I just believe that if their story ended at "I'll save you from the pirates", it would've been way less believble.

Anyway, this discussion isn't about Zutara, we can do that in the Zutara fanclub, this is about ZUKO.

So, yeah, I've always seen good in him and while I could see where people who don't are coming from, I really think they aren't looking deep enough. There are more layers to Zuko, more than just what the eye can see. He's not bad, not bad at all.

[thefirelordzuko]

Nov 6, 2012 23:31:46 GMT -6 @boogum said:

Nov 6, 2012 23:09:39 GMT -6 thefirelordzuko said:

What do you think of Zuko's decision to side with Azula during the Crossroads of Destiny episode? Do you think it was necessary and/or a believable action for his character to take?

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Like most people I believe, I don't agree with his decision. Obviously he should have gone with Iroh and Katara, that's what seemed obviously right, but in Zuko's standpoint I believe there's a lot more to it than right and wrong, and what he percieved to be both, which is why I believe that this decitio was a believable action for this character to make AND it was EXTREMELY necessary for him as a character, to develop and learn and grow.

First, let's talk about what happened in the caves previously between Katara and Zuko for a moment. I'm not going into detail, I'm sure everyone here has over-analyzed this scene more than once on paper, out loud, and in their heads/while watching it. But for Zuko to have this option, for Katara to bring up the fact that he could get his scar removed, it's a BIG thing for him. Since he got the scar, Zuko had detested it. Well...he hasn't exactly liked it. Whenever someone mentions something about his face, even when Katara does it in this exact scene, he always comments in a very dejected or angry tone (depending on the situation). This is an obvious indicator that he doesn't like the burnt flesh on his face: It reminds him of what his father did to him, of his mistakes, of what he has to regain, and more importantly it brings up the fact that his father, the man who is supposed to love him, voluntarily burned his own son on the eye. Zuko doesn't want to accept the fact that his father doesn't love him, not yet at least, so this scar, this reminder of everything bad about him and inside him, is something he doesn't exactly like.
And then Katara gives him the opportunity to get rid of it? She's trusting him, giving up this sacred water, to help him. After everything that he's done. And it shocks him, it really does. How Katara can easily be so giving to him and affectionate, it's far different than what he had experienced so far in his life.

And then this opportunity suddenly gets taken away. That scene where Katara is leaving and she makes a sad eye contact with Zuko before turing completely to leave the firebender with his Uncle, you can see they both understand what is going on. Katara seems sorry she couldn't have done it and Zuko knows that this opportinuty was taken away from him; he still has to deal with his scar.

Secondly, Azula shows up shortly after. Even after she tricked Zuko in the first place, hours early with the whole denying an Agni Kai thing and sending Zuko to the Crystal Catacombs in the first place, she still manages to find a way into Zuko's brain. She proposes a new idea and it still gets to Zuko. Why? Because he still wants to believe, even after this "metamorphosis" he went through an episode earlier, that his father will love him is he returns with the Avatar. He is blinded by this determination to be everything his father wanted, to do what Ozai would want in order to earn pride and praise from him, and it's the driving force for Zuko for Book 1 and much of Book 2. I believe he knows what is right, which is why he hesitated in the first place and contemplated Katara, Aang, and Iroh's side, but in the end he chose to go with Azula because of the reasons I stated above.
Azula knows how to play with peoples' minds and what they want, which was obvious in how Azula manipulated Zuko and it directly showed what Zuko wanted and itched for. Although he knew what was right, he couldn't admit to himself his father didn't love him as a father should because, as you said, that makes everything he had been fighting and working for for the past 3 or so years pointless. It's become part of him and he really needs to find himself and who he is, but I don't believe he is ready to do that yet which is why this decision was so crucial to his character development.

If he hadn't chosen Azula's side, he would have never gotten to go back home and experience the truth: that Ozai didn't really care for him and he was merely a pawn in his father's game. He would've been questioning the whole time whether his father would love him if he chose Aang's side, but by experienceing his discontent and anger at doing the wrong thing, but what he knew was what his father would've wanted, he uncovered the truth and grew from it. He was forced to find things out by himself and find HIMSELF without the influence of others; to pick himself up and realize what is right and what he should've done in the first place.
Then, of course, he learns even more by going to be with the Avatar. He learns deeper meanings of penance and forgiveness and strength. Without making that decision, I don't think Zuko would have been the same as he had been in the finale. It's out mistakes that shape us, really, and this major one really helped Zuko grow as a character and as I person.

While I don't think it was the RIGHT choice, of course, it was the right choice for him in order to learn the most and become the Zuko in the end of Book 3.

Gah, oh my glob, this is just a rambling of feelings and random points, I really hope you guys grasp what I'm trying to get across in this post erkuhjbrjhbwgrgt

But yeah, your thoughts?

Also, this gif gets me every time:


I just...you can see the confliction in his eyes and how it pains him to do this. He made the choice and even then you can see how unhappy he is. GAH! It breaks my heart rekugnrtkgr

[makegnomemistake]

Yay discussion time!

I agree with a lot of what thefirelordzuko said. For me, the best part of Zuko's character arc is that in the end, he has to be his own salvation. Iroh is a huge and absolutely necessary influence, to be sure, but in S3 Zuko was forced to contemplate on his own and make his own decisions, in order to find himself. I think this is why the writers went the way they did during the S2 finale.

If Zuko had changed sides at that time, it would have been largely based on other people's influences (Iroh and to a lesser extent Katara). It was very clear that his own heart wasn't yet settled, because he had equally strong positive and negative aspects in his life, pulling him in different directions (part of the reason why he had suffered through that 'metamorphosis', where his image of himself was becoming fundamentally different from his actual self). And like thefirelordzuko mentioned, he would always have been wondering 'what if' and doubting his decision, and this could potentially have had even more disastrous consequences later in the time.

He made the wrong decision, to be sure, but I think this was necessary (as was the separation from Iroh and enough time back home to realize that what he thought he had wanted was an illusion) before he was able to make the right one while standing on his own two feet and deciding his own destiny by taking it into his own hands.

I think this one sentence from audreyii-fic's The Sparrowkeet Series (extremely paraphrased of course), sums up the essence of Zuko's character for me: The man who has has lost his way from the path and struggled and fought his way to find it again, is stronger than the man who has never been tempted to stray in the first place. This is why I find his character arc the most dynamic, complex, and inspiring in the series for me.

[kisho101]

I'd love to join! Heck, anything with Zuko I'd join in a heartbeat!

[thefirelordzuko]

Nov 8, 2012 20:03:44 GMT -6 @boogum said:

That said, I also feel that Zuko had experienced enough during his time in the Earth Kingdom to have sided with Aang and the others while still reaching that same growth/potential as he does in canon (just in a different way). So while I can understand why Zuko sides with Azula (despite the fact he knows she always lies), I also feel that it wasn't truly necessary. He still would have wondered 'what if' at first, but I think he would have eventually come to terms with the truth, just as he does in canon.

I agree with you to a certain point. I do believe that what you said about Zuko learning much (if not enough) from his time at the Earth King. He does become greatly humbled and had started to think about settling down with his Uncle, as he indicated after he went through his "metamorphosis". However, that being said, I do still believe it was necessary for his character. All this time he has been taking Iroh's advice and having a helping hand, which was very beneficial and needed for this character, but he needed to be torn apart from that. He needed to make that mistake, to learn just how grateful he was to have his Uncle by his side, to learn even more about forgiveness and being forgiven, and he also needed to figure out who he was and make decisions on his own.

Zuko has some major ghosts from his past haunting him and I believe he needed to confront them himself and find out the truth about his unhappiness by experiencing it. He is a troubled mind and soul and he needed to make the mistake and learn from it and grow from it, to learn more about redemption and penance and forgiveness and earning those, and he wouldn't have achieved it in the same way if he had chosen to go with Aang and Katara and Iroh.

He needed to learn the truth, just as he had done in the Avatar and the Fire Lord episode where he finds out about Sozin and Roku. He needed to not take his Uncle being there for granted and learn from his mistake and he needed to be in that Fire Nation war meeting and experience wanting to speak out against it but having to hold his tongue and how unhappy he really was. He needed to figure out and realize his father didn't love him and probably wouldn't and he needed to confront Ozai, but he needed to figure this all out by himself. He got the aid of others and now it was time for him to figure himself out.

It really proves his strength.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I totally see where you're coming from though (:

[advocaat]

If Zuko had joined in CoD he would certainly have missed out on all of those important moments in the Fire Nation (the meeting, learning Roku was his great grandfather, discovering for himself that home wasn't what he thought it was, etc.), but I wonder how much of his emotional baggage could've been knocked off the trolly simply by having real friends. Growing up, Zuko didn't seem to have any friends at all. He didn't have a buddy he could turn to who would support him when he needed it. The only people he had were Ursa and Iroh, and support from them would've only increased the conflict inside of him, as they were so tied in with the source of the problem.

Zuko needed a third party, someone who wasn't invested in the politics of his crazy-ass family (or even his country, for that matter), to show him that things like love and acceptance didn't come at a price. If he'd gone with the gaang, he would've gotten to experience healthy relationships; people who cared about him wanted him to be happy simply because that's what friends do. I think seeing that would've helped him realize that what he was searching for back home was toxic and wrong. I certainly think that he would always wonder "what if", but once he faced his father again, even as an enemy, he would have the clarity of mind to look at him and understand that Ozai has no idea what love is.

Of course I'd never change how things happened in the series, but it's something to think about.

[advocaat]

Just doin' m'job ma'am. *straightens imaginary tie*

I think the matter of Zuko's lack of friends is something a lot of people overlook. Friendship is an essential part of a child's development, but the only experience Zuko had with it was Azula's less than healthy friendship with Mai and Ty Lee. Combine that with disproportionate affection and favoritism shown by both of his parents and his father's emotional (and later physical) abuse, and it's hardly a wonder that Zuko is so torn up on the inside. Let's not even get into Azula...

[advocaat]

What is your favourite 'Zuko moment' from the show?

Okay, this probably isn't what you were expecting, but my favorite Zuko moment was when he was attacking Aang at the beach house and he flipped up onto the roof. Every time I see that, I'm like, "Damn, boy! Did you really just do that? You really just did that. BAMF."

[mrspettyfer]

Favorite Zuko moment...how can I pick just one?!

Probably his fight against Azula in the finale. It was just so badass and I thought it was beautiful seeing him finally controlling his fire. He was calm, collected, and amazing. And the lightning jump in front of Katara was beautiful too lol.

[thefirelordzuko]

On a note from the previous discussion:
I'm glad you guys brought up the fact that Zuko was lacking in friends and a lot of people overlook that, I agree. It's really a big part in his development as a character and how I think, when he's older and now that he has friends, he holds onto those relationships with teeth and nails to make sure he doesn't lose them as he lost Lu Ten and his mother, not to mention many other things.

Anyway, my fvaorite Zuko moment...hmm...

I could say the Agni Kai and him taking the lightning from Katara, because I adore that entire scene. There's also the last Maiko kiss which, while I don't ship it as much as Zutara it's still a beautifully animated kiss and I love the way it was executed. And then there's the date with Jin that's just plain adorable and awkward and the "Hello, Zuko here!"...not to mention loads of other AMAZING moments that he was in but...

I think my favorite would be when he's crowned Fire Lord. That speech always gives me chills and while basically every Zuko moment is my favorite, this one just popped in my mind and just krjbtgkjrengrtkgj. It really shows how far he's come as a person and it makes me all giddy inside. <3