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Post by manzanasverdes on Nov 30, 2012 11:10:53 GMT -6
Oh. Wow. I'd never heard that one before. Fortunately.
My reading of that scene with the guru was more like Aang was transferring all of this free-floating love and longing for his lost people onto Katara (which was one of those moments that had me going RUN KATARA RUN, because all that pressure to fill such a space/role cannot possibly be healthy for one single person to shoulder. Plus yeah, familiar feels reading ALL OVER THE PLACE, but since it wasn't Katara and Sokka and Toph, it was obviously meant to be taken romantically considering this is Aang's idea of Katara we're talking about), my justification for reading it like this has to do with how he then flat-out refused to let go of his attachment to her, since he's already poured so freaking much into her, you can't just expect him to let go of all that cold-turkey, I think he might have been a slight bit more open to considering the necessity of detaching himself, and actually thinking through what it meant to detach himself, before that major emotional transference; heck, he is actually able to willingly go into the Avatar State later on, so technically he did let go of her (he just got a giant reset button with bonus take-backs afterward /tangent). May need to re-watch the scene in case the argument above is made in the wording of things more than in what it was shown (HA! this is AtLA/LoK's chronic problem, isn't it?), but still, it's a pretty disturbing argument.
Even if it were true, how much more about Aang can you make this be? This would literally make Katara into a vessel, nothing more, it would not even be her choice to be with Aang, it would not be the her own love story, it would be how she was born/made/whatever so that Aang could still be loved, or still had a family, or could belong somewhere, could let go of his grief and guilt, etc. THE POINT OF HER WHOLE EXISTENCE WOULD BASICALLY BE: TO MAKE AANG HAPPY.
I kinda prefer the idea of the Avatar recognizing his/her 'soul mate' at first sight. Which isn't much better, imho.
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nami
Non-Bender
Mad as a Hatter
Posts: 40
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Post by nami on Nov 30, 2012 12:23:29 GMT -6
Here's my favourite weird convoluted peice of Kataang logic. Katara is the reincarnation of the airnomad's love for Aang (guru episode is often quoted here). She is the reincarnation of their love for Aang ppl - so therefore its truluv4eva between Aang and Katara because you can't fight fate/destinty/reincarnation or what have you. even if we accept this logic on face value - it is still a hotmess of everything. this is a logic car crash! Now here I was thinking that the other airnomads would have had platonic/parental feelings towards Aang. not, you know sexy feelings, which is just all kinds of wrong. To me that would suggest that if Katara was actually meant to be the reincarnation of the airnomads love she would show platonic/paternal feelings - not the sexy feelings - towards Aang. and lo and behold she does! no sexy feelings that I can detect, and an arse ton of maternal feelings. We Zutarans get reamed out for suggesting that Katara is too materal with Aang for it to be romantic and then the Kataangers come out with clonkers like this. They are saying Katara is the collective reincarantion of Aang's parent figures. parental figue =/= romantic partner. it's surely not that difficult a concept, is it? My wily, smirking warrior princess is too good for incest or an oedipus tragedy. I'm severely freaked out by that reasoning.. What sort of stuff were they smoking when they came up with that? Excuse me, parents, please keep your kids away from the alcohol and the marijauna! The whole thing is just a mess. It's obviously a mad scramble by Kataangers to cling to the ship that has been tattered by our fanon facts which actually make sense. XD It's definitely not romantic, more like disgusting. >___> Yeah, I can't see Katara agreeing to that with a dumb smile and a nod. >> No way. Not the Katara we know now. Besides relationships are 50/50 and when they aren't, they don't work.
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 2, 2012 19:13:12 GMT -6
Oh good gravy. Nothing gets me more than people telling others they're delusional when they come out with ridiculous concepts that only blow a cannonball in their own case. Quality.
Another gripe is when they 'HEADCANON' things that 'support' canon while completely undermining the complexity of the scene, and then say that 'because of how things went in the end, this is the most plausible'. Ember Island Players for example. We see Aang really pissed off because he's seen as a brother figure in the play. But what do you think triggered that? Seeing 'Zuko and Katara' being all intimate together. Yet these Kataangers get it in their heads that Aang 'didn't mention Zuko because he knows it was a ridiculous concept'. Um. DID he now? Just because he didn't mention Zuko by name when confronting Katara doesn't mean he wasn't affected by that scene. He must have felt threatened by Zuko, otherwise he would have been able to brush that whole thing off without a problem. But the fact is, he was made insecure by the whole scene. Seeing Katara with Zuko in a romantic context was the FIRST THING that made him uneasy, and that cannot be fanwanked away because it's in plain, fucking, sight.
Another is Zuko seeing Katara bloodbend. I've mentioned this before, but they actually headcanon that Zuko 'saw Katara's unravelling thus Aang was right' when he was, uh, surprised at seeing her bloodbend. Yeah, because you can definitely tell what Zuko's thinking when he widens his eyes in shock/surprise. It could mean ANYTHING. What it says to me though is that he's amazed and terrified by this awesome power, and that it's incredible to behold, because he carries on letting her lead and do her thing. There was nothing I could detect about 'Aang being right' in just that gesture alone. That's just ridiculous. And lol just because he conceded to HALF of what Aang was getting at earlier doesn't make this headcanon any more than total bollocks.
One more thing, this notion that 'only Aang can fill Katara's ridiculously high standards'. Hm, high standards you say? If you want to talk high standards, Zuko has some pretty high fucking standards of himself. And if you will, of the people he wants to please. One of those people being, you know, Katara. And let's just say Zuko's pretty damn impressed by her. The girl leaves an impression, and he obviously seeks to do the same. He seeks to leave the best impression possible, while simply being a good, receptive person (Boiling Rock much?) to the people he cares about. He's impressed as hell by her bloodbending/water dome, even if that is fear-induced. The fact that he instantly calls on her to join him in the fight against Azula says a lot.
Sidetrack alert lol. The point is, Zuko ends up doing a whole lot for Katara, to prove himself, to prove that his word was true and he understands her, and that he really changed. He puts himself out there to prove that he is who he says he is- being under that pressure from Katara in the first place, he takes the task full on and doesn't flinch away from a damn thing. He's self-deprecating, saying he doesn't deserve the toast- he thinks he could be even better than he is and will never stop trying. He drives the heck out of Aang and criticises him where necessary, anxious to see him improve and beat Ozai, especially when Aang is poorly motivated, and certainly doesn't tolerate his goofing off. And when he is concerned about anything he doesn't shy away from voicing it. He's a realist yet idealist who is driven to see the wrong in his own culture, something which has been indoctrinated in his very soul for as long as he's been alive. He takes Katara on a life-changing field trip to face her mother's killer, all the while putting himself in danger while allowing her to lead. And then if you please, he winds up throwing himself in front of lightning with but a split second to make that choice. Basically. He instinctively SACRIFICES HIS LIFE FOR HER.
So. Standards being 'too high' for Zuko? Don't expect to have Aang as a partner, then.
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mati
Bender
Posts: 129
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Post by mati on Dec 4, 2012 15:56:38 GMT -6
Okay, here's a thing XD I woke up this morning and some person left me this comment on my recent artwork: matereya.deviantart.com/art/Relief-340636847?So, in response I told him I don't support Kataang but I like Aang as a character, that's all. So he replied "So you don't support the original history?" And I was like...do I really want to get into an argument with this ignorant person? And then, since I was really in a hurry to get to school and didn't have time for this stupid kind of thing, I posted a random rant on my tumblr: mati-chan.tumblr.com/post/37175591303/grrrr-kataangers-sorry-i-just-really-hate#notesand tagged it in the Kataang tag because I was so frustrated =_= and again - no hate tagged - only voiced my feelings about this stupid never ending shipping war. And how am I rewarded: a bunch of hate messages from anon and this obnoxious kataangcaps person >>" Really, I don't know whether I should laugh or frown at that. That's completely ridiculous. Maybe I should've known better than to tag anything in the Kataang tag, but then again - it's not like I bashed their ship or anything. Man...these people are crazy, and I'm just gonna delete all the hate messages I get and ignore them all, but I can't say it doesn't bother me because the last thing I wanted is to be bullied buy a bunch of crazy immature kataangers...heh =__=
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Post by emletish on Dec 4, 2012 16:12:14 GMT -6
Yeah Kataangcaps is more obnoxious than a three-year-old whose just been given a drumkit - and twice as annoying. I say ignore her. Some Kataangers have nothing better to do than to troll the Zutarans. It's a bit medieval isn't it. it's like they think they are on some canon-crusade. We are heretics and they MUST convert us or burn us. the best we can do is take the high road I guess and be classy, not crazy. they bring the crazy all on their own.
also your art is lovely!
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honeybee
Bender
Canon? What's That? O_o
Posts: 70
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Post by honeybee on Dec 4, 2012 16:28:43 GMT -6
First rule to living a relatively peaceful life on tumblr: don't write opposing ship names in your tags. That's just asking for trouble. While you didn't diss kataang in your post, you did kind of vent your frustration at those who support it.
Don't get me wrong, you are well within your right to do so; especially since some of them can be quite irritating and even offensive at times, but you can't expect a positive response from any kataangers who happened to view your post. One hint of a gibe will have some jumping all over you like a rabid dog.
So for the sake of your sanity and peace of mind, don't use that tag again. Believe me, you'll be a lot happier if you don't.
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mati
Bender
Posts: 129
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Post by mati on Dec 4, 2012 16:37:30 GMT -6
Yeah Kataangcaps is more obnoxious than a three-year-old whose just been given a drumkit - and twice as annoying. I say ignore her. Some Kataangers have nothing better to do than to troll the Zutarans. It's a bit medieval isn't it. it's like they think they are on some canon-crusade. We are heretics and they MUST convert us or burn us. the best we can do is take the high road I guess and be classy, not crazy. they bring the crazy all on their own. also your art is lovely! Thank you!!! *-* I'm feeling better already :3 And you're right, I shouldn't pay attention to them, but sometimes it's so irritating so it's hard to ignore =\ First rule to living a relatively peaceful life on tumblr: don't write opposing ship names in your tags. That's just asking for trouble. While you didn't diss kataang in your post, you did kind of vent your frustration at those who support it. Don't get me wrong, you are well in your right to do so; especially since some of them can be quite irritating and even offensive at times, you can't expect a positive response from any kataangers who happened to view your post. One hint of a jib will have some jumping all over you like a rabid dog. So for the sake of your sanity and peace of mind, don't use that tag again. Believe me, you'll be a lot happier if you don't. Heh I know now XD Really, I should've known better, I won't ever do that again. And overall, it just doesn't worth it. But it bugs me when someone posts tactless things on my art. I mean - if you have nothing better to say, some things are better left unsaid. And as far as I know you can't delete their comments.
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honeybee
Bender
Canon? What's That? O_o
Posts: 70
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Post by honeybee on Dec 4, 2012 16:54:08 GMT -6
(Gah! You quoted the original version of my comment with the spelling errors! Nooooo! D8)
Well, on DA, you can just hide their comments. I don't think you can do anything about comments on tumblr, though. You can delete your post, if you want, but I doubt you can delete anyone else's.
But yeah, it sucks when people write stupid comments on your artwork just because they don't like the pairing. It's always the gorgeous ones, like yours, that these comments will appear on. I think they're just a tad bit envious that our ship has so many talented artists and writers creating things for it. Their comments are prompted by a hidden (and not so hidden) bitterness that they don't get it as good on their side. Ignore them.
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mati
Bender
Posts: 129
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Post by mati on Dec 4, 2012 17:46:56 GMT -6
(Gah! You quoted the original version of my comment with the spelling errors! Nooooo! D8)Well, on DA, you can just hide their comments. I don't think you can do anything about comments on tumblr, though. You can delete your post, if you want, but I doubt you can delete anyone else's. But yeah, it sucks when people write stupid comments on your artwork just because they don't like the pairing. It's always the gorgeous ones, like yours, that these comments will appear on. I think they're just a tad bit envious that our ship has so many talented artists and writers creating things for it. Their comments are prompted by a hidden (and not so hidden) bitterness that they don't get it as good on their side. Ignore them. Nah, I couldn't care less about your spelling cause I'm not a native English speaker myself ;XDAnd thank you again *hugs* What can I say...haters gonna hate ~_~
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Post by dynamojacks on Dec 4, 2012 20:44:24 GMT -6
I think the person could have been a bit more tactful in their wording- the 'not respecting the history' seems unnecessary. But I don't think they meant any harm- I guess they're new to the concept of fanon. I was new to it when I came across Avatar. At first, I thought shipping outside of the canon pairing wouldn't be 'right', but that's only because the material I'd read/watched/played before hadn't given me any reason to doubt the canon.
Also, I think the problem with Tumblr tags is that it's less about 'categorization' and more about 'communication' with other fans of said tag. So it's a bit of a sore point if you're addressing fans in particular and what you've got to say isn't something they like to hear. I was afraid folk wouldn't like the 'Zuko admonishing Aang for getting distracted by Katara' caption thing because I was kinda poking fun at Aang, but lo and behold what happens? It gets more reblogs from KATAANG fans. That I did not expect at all. (I also had one of those Kataang fans making a derisive remark towards Zutarians. Um. Thanks, lol) Anyway. Rival Tumblr tags can be perfectly fine if you're addressing both sides with something- like if you have one of those announcements on how to be a good shipper, or if you have something which is 'shipper ambiguous'. But if in doubt, leave it out is what I say xD;
Saw Kataangcaps' post- ugh really? Justifying the crap we get because people start it on their tag? Yeah no fuck off kid. People like this is the reason the ship war will never end. (Also I just saw a response of theirs to an ask and I got to wonder if this person was legit dropped on their head at birth. What the everloving fuck.)
That brings me to another point that Kataangers(?) keep bringing up- that the characters history/development is disrespected when another ship is thrown in. Something to do with Kataang being the 'DNA of Avatar' or some bollocks that Bryke said. Which is funny because I read somewhere they had told someone that Kataang/Zutara was FIFTY-FIFTY, or at least made to look like that. And considering the construction of the very last season, it makes too much sense. There was little to no Kataang-friendly evidence since Zuko hops on board. Katara rebuffs Aang, she becomes more motherly, and there's NO other romance cues or notes on Katara feelings. Nada. Which is why the endgame was so surprising for many. Because the character dynamic between Zuko and Katara, and the other characters, completely took centre stage right until the last moments.
So if Kataang truly was the 'DNA' of Avatar they had a funny way of showing it.
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