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Post by Admin on Nov 11, 2012 19:29:26 GMT -6
Any ridiculous anti-Zutara arguments you keep hearing about? Post and rebuttal about them here. Keep in mind: Do not bash.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 13, 2012 10:36:36 GMT -6
Let's kick this off.
"The reason Zutara wasn’t canon is because Katara is a pragmatist, not a romantic. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel romance or have passion, mind, it’s that the paths for that romance and passion are less likely to go for the wild and crazy option.
Going for a man with whom you have uncomfortable history is a leap all on its own, never mind the political ramifications for the Fire Lord marrying outside the Fire Nation nobility. Especially when you’re weaning an entire nation off a century long military industrial complex, throwing tradition out the window and fucking up the delicate political balance of the Fire Nation post-war is perhaps the worst idea ever. It for sure would result in at least one assassination. For the above, even if Katara was madly in love with Zuko (and the show made it clear she wasn’t by the end of Season 3), she’d be practical, let it go, and pick a man more practical. Because Katara is a pragmatist."
Okay then.
1. Where was that stated in Katara's character that she was merely a 'pragmatist'? In my mind, the Southern Raiders proved otherwise- she CAN be pragmatic, but it doesn't apply to all of her behaviour. And for that matter, in what way was Zuko and Katara's relationship NOT pragmatic as opposed to 'wild and crazy' (where teh fu do people GET these ideas..?)?
2. Bryke never planned on making Zutara endgame from the beginning anyway. I would argue that they're guilty of throwing in convoluted dynamics to throw off the endgame, and to make it look like the scales were even, but they had their goal and they were going to see it through. I don't think they used relationship dynamics as a means of making that goal on a character-by-character basis. I think it was entirely fated from the beginning as an overall storyline tactic. Their remarks seem to suggest as much. Hell, I think they were very clear on some of the commentary about that (don't know where though), but you can't very well have these in mind while you're watching the show for the first time, can you?
3. The political ramifications of the Fire Lord's marriage may be a leap, and it may not be practical per se, but it's not impossible either. What's equally apparent is that Katara's character is stubborn and strong-willed, as is Zuko's. If she feels strongly enough about something, she's more likely to see it through no matter bleedin' what (and Zuko wouldn't let her come to harm either. The ending to Confused comes to mind- she sure shows that other guy). Anyway, it makes for an even more interesting story, and Avatar as a whole is the kind of series that doesn't back away from social issues. So why would people assume ahead of time that Katara would back away from Zuko for these kinds of reasons? It doesn't make sense. (Now, I'm not really an expert at this post-war stuff.. far from it xD;; Can anyone add to this?)
4. As far as Zuko and Katara's history is concerned, there's little to NO evidence of any discomfort after the Southern Raiders. They didn't just forgive each other automatically- Zuko even had to take not one, not two, but THREE trips in order to test himself -looking after Aang while re-learning firebending, rescueing Katara's dad and finally, helping to give her closure on her mother's death. I like to think these kinds of things can help two people sufficiently overcome 'uncomfortable history'. Plus the body language in that hug seems to suggest that any and all uncomfortable history is, just that- history. He had the chance to properly prove himself, and that's what was needed to cut that last barrier down.
5. She didn't even have to be 'madly in love with Zuko' for people to notice the kind of things going on that made them shine as a potential match. Hell, the way it looked, they very well could have ended up together anyway. At the point where Katara cries happy tears for his safety, you'd think they would have hugged. Considering they were actually on great terms now, and when she was just at the point of forgiveness, she gave him a big hug. Make sense out of her calm demeanour at the Agni Kai then, because looking back at it, I can't. Drunkzutarafeels were probably right on the money about them being 'out of character' there. Anyway. 'Madly in love' or not, they were bouncing off each other like they were meant to be.
Anyway. Not the most ridiculous I've heard or anything, but the argument here does seem pretty.. base. It also seems to assume that people know ahead of time the problems that are going to show up, and that Katara had this in mind (where's the evidence of that?). That alone seems odd to me. Also the whole 'Zutara is wild and crazy rather than practical' is old hat if you've seen them enough and know how they interconnect. It just seems like they're looking at it very much on a surface level, as if they're looking at it through the 'dark n intriguing' goggles. Guh..
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 6:58:30 GMT -6
'Scuse the double post, but the other one's a little older and this could get.. very loaded. If it's a problem I'll merge them. But this one IS ridiculous and I have to address this crap.
'Zuko is painfully awkward around the opposite sex, and Katara expresses affection with innocent gestures. None of this suggests hot steamy passion. Zutarians have no idea who Katara and Zuko are- they really don't get it. The fact that Zuko’s personality would wear on Katara’s nerves in a few minutes is enough. She wouldn’t put up with it long enough to feel attraction for him, much less fall in love with him. We're talking about Katara here.'
Nabbed this from a certain other Avatar debate site (paraphrased). Just... my brain is full of WTF in this bitch. Especially at the attitude of the person in question.
First of all:
'no idea who Katara and Zuko are'
This seems to assume that folk who follow the canon 'know everything' about the character because of the set paths they were led down. That's why people have interpretations. We don't KNOW what Zuko and Katara would be like IN a romantic relationship for the simple reason that they've never actually had one. And besides, given the evidence of the characters themselves, let's see- what you're given on Zuko and Katara's halves are the interactions they've had with their 'significant others', not with each other. Big difference. You can't translate Mai to Katara and Aang to Zuko, because they're very, VERY different people, and have a much different effect on each other. There is a reason why we say that Zuko brings out a different side in Katara, and it's not just out of nowhere either. The way she responds to him even WITHOUT being romantic is enough to suggest that she's much more than just an innocent cutesy first-love.
'Zuko's personality would wear on Katara's nerves'
I really don't get when people spew this crap. Has he worn on her nerves before? How the heck do you know when it's only been when they've been on really bad terms? When they've been on GOOD terms- which is after the Southern Raiders (and on the Crossroads of Destiny)- there's no such evidence of them even getting on each other's nerves. In fact, they seem to be having a pretty good time. The interaction in the EIP was less 'wearing on each others' nerves' and simply 'Katara poking fun at Zuko', and Zuko being plainly embarrassed, not annoyed. He doesn't shoot back sludge at her for such a thing, so it's not like his hot temper overrules his entire personality for Pete's sake. That's another gripe- when people simplify Zuko to being a hot-headed 'emo' or a selfish douche. Nope. The only other time they really 'crossed wires' was when Zuko was pissed at the entire group for goofing off. And even then Katara didn't bite back at him.
Cripes. Where DO people get these ideas..?!
'She wouldn't put up with it. We're talking about Katara here.'
Okay, I'm getting the distinct impression that this keeps coming from Zuko haters, that first bit. As for the second, this is also coming from someone who seems to think Katara's character is so simple and clear cut. It isn't, and it never was. To suggest otherwise is to belie the entire dimensions of her personality (which people keep DOING in the Southern Raiders and it pisses me off to no end). So what Katara are we talking about? Maybe the one we saw for our own eyes rather than simply 'chose to see'? The major thing that gets me about folk who shoot down Zutara like this is the insistence that we're 'projecting characteristics that aren't there' or 'seeing qualities that aren't present'. Uh, no. We're seeing them, and they're very much present. The fact is that not everyone's going to see the characters the same way, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong or 'deluded' for doing so.
Or maybe Bryke's story path just doesn't gel with how the characters developed on their own terms. Did anyone fighting so vehemently on the other side ever think of that?
UGH.
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Post by harpalyce on Nov 14, 2012 11:19:38 GMT -6
I keep hearing the perennial "but Zutara isn't canon!" ...Yes, and? "But it isn't canon! Kataang is!" YES, AAAAAAAAND? "But it's not canon! That means you should stop shipping Zutara -" (Then I devolve into posting gifs.)
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 15, 2012 12:12:53 GMT -6
All right, I'm gonna rebuff yet again. More Southern Raiders crap.
Okay, so let's surmise that Zuko did somehow have this motive of 'getting Katara off his back'. Let's just somehow assume that that alone is something that takes a whole night to think about, even though we've already been through that crap already with Sokka in the tent (and I'll even dispute that because he says he 'cares what she thinks', not that 'she's a bitch to me waah wahhh' Cripes e_e). Yes, he does bring up the fact that 'she's connecting her anger at her mother's death to her anger at him'. Yes, he does feel somewhat injusticed at this particular thing. But how can just take apart his motivations in one fell swoop like that? How can you simplify his entire reasoning based on a seemingly 'less than altruistic motive'?
You can't.
So let's think about this then. He gets that out in the open, that he wants Katara to see the difference between him and the man who killed her mother. And then let's consider, why exactly it is that he does this. He has no reason to 'need' Katara's blessing when it comes to his mission with Aang. He's come so far without needing her damned approval, even after her challenge on his person. Zuko's not the type to balk at 'people being mean to him' for heavens' sake. What do these people take him for? So approval isn't the thing that Zuko is after, he's after mutual understanding. He accepted that in the caves when he and Katara were trapped together. And if he's 'engineering a situation' (please) to bring that out into the open, it could only be for one reason- to get on her level, just like he was back then. To help her, the way she tried to help him.
Explain why he was staying outside her tent all night if he was just manipulating a situation for his own sake. Explain why he bothered to do such a thing if he wasn't emotionally involved in any way. Explain away all the hours that he was awake, when people are usually asleep. Believe me, I've pulled all-nighters thinking about crap before. And I think about a FUCK LOAD of things beyond the initial trigger. So Zuko's behaviour really doesn't strike me as one-dimensional, at all.
Now. At this point, I don't believe that he was aware he LURRRRRRVS Katara. But the fact of the matter is that he is hugely, hugely motivated by her. And why? Because both of them have been through similar kinds of things- the Fire Nation have both taken away their mothers. Zuko is not the Fire Nation. He knows the Fire Nation has hurt him too. And he knows that they've hurt Katara. You see the way he acts when he fights with her, he really roughs some bitches up. And he lets Katara do her thing. He doesn't manipulate her or force her to do things she doesn't want to do- in fact, she SURPRISES him with the things she does.
So. Zuko not having at least some motive towards Katara's wellbeing as person? Zuko not having empathy for her situation? Zuko being a complete selfish twonk with little regard for how he appears to her? Bullshit. He doesn't mention his damn self the WHOLE TIME on that trip, even though he has his issue with his mother (not knowing if she's alive or not, having been taken away). He just rides it out with her. Getting justice for her the way he can never expect to for himself. He at least can give her that, even if he can't bring her mother back.
Ho boy, that was another doozy/big one...
I have a feeling I can tighten this up somehow but I'm not sure how at the moment. *derp*
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 15, 2012 17:22:07 GMT -6
THIS. Damn it all to hell. People get up in arms when we criticise Kataang because for the most part, it's Aang that gets the brunt of it. Yet whenever these same people criticise Zutara, it's ALWAYS ZUKO. Oftentimes it's never about the relationship itself but the ONE CHARACTER they don't like :/ (I have to admit to not really liking Mai, but that wasn't the sole reason for not liking Maiko.. geez).
Hell, I like Aang, but I don't really dig Kataang. In all fairness, I have a really hard time finding anything to criticise about Katara.. I just see a lot of flaws in Aang when I'm analysing Kataang. Maybe it's because they're much more obvious when held up to the light.
The thing is, we're not even hugely biased against Aang. We know that he's a decent character, he's just applied really awkwardly and doesn't grow as strong as he could have done (especially as Zuko's development as a SUPPORTING CHARACTER outshines him as a MAIN). But whenever I see criticism of Zuko, they usually try to simplify him and reject any and all things that could possibly be 'mistaken interpretation' of his character. I don't think ANYONE here has tried to simplify Aang. We take him as he is, his intentions and all. We don't strip him of any of these things. We know the trials that make Aang.. well, Aang. But that doesn't make his character more compatible for Katara just because canon made them collide in the end.
YES THIS. How on earth can you 'prove' the kinds of things that the opposing fandom keep claiming? It's just speculation based on bias. And if it's speculation to suggest that Zuko's character has, you know, 'a little more going on than one dimensional selfishness' when waiting outside Katara's tent, then they can pretty much kiss their headcanons (oh I'm sorry, 'canon reasoning') goodbye as 'false interpretation' too. I'm sorry, but I don't think 'their pairing being in canon' gives them free reign to screw with the characters and give them traits that they don't possess (in this case removing desirable traits) in order to 'validate the canon'. If the characters on their own terms struggle to validate it, then we have a problem.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 16, 2012 12:38:31 GMT -6
Alright, I just need to flesh out the Southern Raiders stuff a bit more. I might be repeating myself though e_e
Okay, so this person starts off by saying it's a shame that people take this episode to be the 'shipping argument episode', when there's clearly a lot of heartbreak to it. That's understandable. But the fact is, it's the way the episode is aligned that makes it confusing to shippers, thus why it's so hotly debated as the 'shipper episode'. I don't think people are trying to make light of the seriousness of it here. That's not even the point of the debate to begin with. Sure, people WILL make light of it- on both sides, no less- but that doesn't nullify the reasoning we have.
First off. The shipping argument doesn't come from 'oh they were clearly romantic' to each other in TSR. We're not saying that they have CLEARLY ROMANTIC things going on in here. It's much more complex and muddled than that. And why do they feel the need to emphasise 'not romantic' so much? If you're gonna pull that card, it's not so clearly romantic on Aang's side, either, is it? This episode isn't even about romance to begin with. ON EITHER SIDE. Though when you're watching Zuko become so invested with Katara herself, you begin to wonder if he has a major crush thing going for her. That's a perception thing. And it's fine that Bryke didn't intend for that, but they have to have known that people might look at it and his character that way. You can think of all manner of things that he'd be thinking about while waiting for Katara, but I'd bet you a pound to a penny that it involved Katara herself, and what they talked about in the caves.
Let's forgo the obvious 'we're criticising Aang therefore we're bashing him' strawman and get straight to the point: we get it. We get his intentions. We get that he's 'trying to look out for her'. That doesn't change how terribly he went about the issue, suggesting that she forgive something that is obviously so heinous and unforgiveable, and since when has he actually forgiven Sozin? Or the sandbenders? He might have let his grief go, but that's not the same as forgiveness. And besides, how many times do we have to go through this - HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HER ENOUGH. It's not that he didn't understand her AT ALL. We've never said that. It's that it just wasn't ENOUGH for the things (i.e forgiveness and poison) he was preaching to her about to make any sense to her, given the person she is, where she's come from and the experiences she's had. And that's only the start of it.
What is wrong with you people? Let's get some quotes up in this bitch:
^ Now the bolded, THIS HERE, was what Katara responded with:
. THE CONTEXT IS SO VERY IMPORTANT HERE.
Aang had no idea what confronting the guy would accomplish, because he's never had to come to the decision to go after anyone like this, at least for this same reason. Sozin's dead, for one, and has been for a long, long time. And sure, he went ape at the sandbenders, but that was different. He triggered the Avatar State- a powerful, formidable state which consumed his entire being. And he didn't even know what had happened to Appa, so he wasn't even on a mission of vengeance, he wanted to FIND Appa, and was angry as all hell when he couldn't get him from the sandbenders- after he'd learned they'd sold him on in Ba Sing Se (to a circus was it? I remember him being locked up in that thing.. aurgh D8), he flipped a shit and lost his nerve completely. There's no way killing the sandbenders would get Appa back or bring any closure. They were no longer responsible for him.
This isn't any such thing. Katara isn't looking FOR her mother. This is rage over a death, coming to the surface that had been bubbling for years, and years. Yet Katara is still in complete and total control. Yes she's a jerk at the moment, and she's being more blunt about her feelings than usual. But really, that's because she doesn't have patience with anything, and has no reason to, so she's snapping left and right. It's nothing to do with loss of control, like with Aang. She's just letting her feelings hit their targets without worrying about the consequences like she usually has to. It doesn't mean that anyone else- OTHER than the one man guilty for Kya's death- would have to die. And even then, she wasn't about to kill him right away. She needed the last piece of the puzzle- the reason why Kya died. Aang nearly had all of those people dead and for what? What would THAT have accomplished? He'd got little information about where Appa had got to. And they weren't even responsible for Appa any more- somebody else was.
I think that speaks volumes about how different their respective situations are. It also suggests that Aang is drawing from his experience to some degree, but the way he applies it is so off-base, it doesn't match up with Katara's reasoning. Which means- although he was right in the end that she would have to let go- he wasn't in the position to talk to her about what facing
[/b] Yon Rha would accomplish, let alone what killing[/b] him would accomplish. So Katara told him, quite rightly, that he didn't understand. End of story. But wait- what's with this 'as usual' anyway? Where has Aang been so supportive of her in the past that it means 'more so than everyone else'? I get that he got pissed at the injustice of the Northern Water Tribe and their blatant sexism. That's one thing. But that's a treatment issue which can affect just about any woman, never mind Katara. That's an overall real injustice thing going down there. It's not just specific to Katara and Katara's mental wellbeing. It was also in the way of both of them, because they both needed to make progress with waterbending, and this sucker Pakku was getting in their way for dickish reasons. Now again: Okay, 'proof of how awesome Aang and Katara's relationship is'... Yeah because Aang clearly didn't concede to Zuko in the end, huh? More quotes! In case you hadn't noticed, he showed up at Appa after dark expecting to challenge them. And he even had the nerve to say 'I forgive you' for trying to take Appa away. After he said that, he CHANGED his mind only BECAUSE Katara wasn't going to let him stop her. His 'forgiveness' was evidence of that much- he decided to drop it and it became a non-issue. And Katara wanted to show appreciation for this much. It may not be 100% mutual understanding (because for one thing he still insisted on her doing something she JUST TOLD HIM EARLIER WAS IMPOSSIBLE), but it's close. And she appreciates that. This doesn't 'scream how great their relationship is'. It tells of how he caved in and let her go because he wasn't ABLE to convince her otherwise. There wasn't compromise here, she and Zuko took the reins and totally overpowered Aang. Zuko too, was losing patience with his attitude because he wasn't bringing anything new to the table which they hadn't already rebuffed. So there was nowhere to go from there. Face it. This episode just wasn't kind to Aang, at all. It wasn't kind to Zuko in a sense either, because many completely miss or otherwise debauch his full intentions, and they're not made clear if you just take it at face value. The same with Aang's, because of the convoluted way his approach is when it comes to shoving wisdom in peoples' faces. Having said that, it's FINE if you think that Aang had her best interests at heart, because I'm sure he did. I'm not arguing that he didn't care for her. I AM arguing that he was evidently presumptuous and simplistic about the issue which he didn't quite get from her viewpoint. Doesn't matter two jots if you're pro Kataang or pro Zutara. Katara had a perfectly good reason to say Aang didn't understand. I'll say that till I'm blue in the face. This has nothing to do with 'bashing Aang for the Zutara agenda'. And no, the episode isn't 'anti-Kataang'. It's some 'very awkwardly placed and convoluted Kataang', with some mixed intentions on both Zuko and Aang's sides. We have a completely ship-ambiguous episode here (though considering how focused it is AROUND Zuko and Katara.. go figure why people call it 'the Zutara episode'), because as it happens Aang and Zuko were both half-right about Katara's needs. But the fact is, Aang wasn't made into the 'bad guy', he was made into the 'naiive guy'. Which, considering he comes from peacetime (100 years previous no less) and not the war like Katara and Zuko do, is a perfectly reasonable analysis of Aang, even taking into account his own experiences. I think Zuko would learn either way that killing people in general is no small matter. He learned from Katara anyway when she threatened him over trying to kill Aang. It's not something that comes without reprisal. So if she had some breakdown over having killed someone in cold blood.. Zuko wouldn't just let it consume her. He would try and help her see it in perspective, something that Aang would never be able to do. Aang's a pacifist, Zuko is not. He knows that there are worse things when you're in the middle of war. One guilty man, vs hundreds of innocent people.. this isn't like Jet, or Ozai. Katara even has this perspective in mind before she sets out on her mission. It's twisted, it's not nice, but as Zuko says, it's the real world. He's had to embrace it himself, and it's made him who he is. He's been broken before, and he'll make sure Katara doesn't go down that hopeless road even if she does have blood on her hands. No matter WHAT happens, I don't think Zuko would just abandon her feelings on account of a 'job well done'. Aang, on the other hand.. I don't know if he would know how to cope with her if she had 'turned to the dark side'. [/spoiler]
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 24, 2012 17:36:00 GMT -6
Okay. Bit more Zuko centric this time.
Wow. Just... wow. I can't even with this diatribe. 'Spelled out in black and white'? Please. I don't call 'references to earlier episodes and making vague statements that require the show's subtext' black and white. Zuko didn't just say 'oh hey I want forgiveness so I'm going to use Katara's dead mother and not consider her feelings at all'! So you can't say it's 'black and white' you fucking moron. We're not idiots and we can look beyond the crappy intentions of Bryke for one particular episode, and look at the intentions of the character as a whole. Zuko's a fucking complex character. Just because he's not very 'outward' about his emotions and intentions, doesn't mean that he doesn't HAVE altruistic ones. As you've no doubt noticed, it's taken a long time for Zuko to come to terms with the Fire Nation's evils. The characters he meets- such as Song, Lee, (Jin?,) Katara- those who have been hurt by them. And he empathises. with. them. This is what begins, however slowly, to CHANGE HIM. It's kind of a huge fucking deal.
As for that whole thing about the Fire Nation, have you even bothered to pay attention to the epic turnaround where Zuko confronts Ozai?
Kiiinda one of his huge motivations for even JOINING the Gaang, don't you think? He's making amends FOR the Fire Nation by this alone. He doesn't apologise on behalf of the Fire Nation because such things are empty to him. He apologises with his fucking actions. That's part of his character. So putting the Fire Nation in its place for their shit is already ingrained in him. A fact that should be obvious to anyone with a brain larger than a grape.
Oh and remember the Crossroads of Destiny?
I'm sure he doesn't forget the moment where Katara opened up to him on something that he himself had suffered so deeply. And considering they were actually enemies as opposed to just being on the opposite side, and it revolved around the loss of a parent by the Fire Nation, that was hugely momentous for Zuko. Nobody could wank that shit away in a million years. So then how about the rage in this?
Ooohhhh, DEFINITELY not emotionally invested there. DEFINITELY not raging at the Fire Nation. Also get a look at the GLARE he gives Yon Rha before they leave. He didn't have to do THAT to gain Katara's forgiveness- he did that because he was purely sickened by the guy. And wanted to let him know that.
Also, another little thing on the last field trip:
He empathised with Sokka and wanted to help him out. That one wasn't even about forgiveness at all. He also pointed out that going on Appa was a bad idea, so he just saved him from getting into a world of trouble. He had nothing to gain from that. Again, considering that the very first field trip was necessary to not only his, but Aang's progression in firebending, it's plain to see that his need for initiating field trips doesn't SOLELY (if even.. at all) come from needing forgiveness, and it isn't him being a suck up. Oh yeah:
Hm. I wonder. Personal experience? Trying to draw from his own to help somebody else? Check. Something he didn't even need to do and something that wouldn't necessarily benefit him in any way? Check. Also being in great danger but not giving a rats ass and just wanting to help his friend? Check.
So now that we've fully established just 'who' Zuko is, let's now address this:
Caring about what she thinks =/= caring about how she treats him. He cares about her opinion, he's worried because he's not quite there yet and he doesn't understand why, especially considering he almost died trying to protect them all from Azula. Alone. That's when he starts thinking about the mother issue, which is something he and Katara levelled over, and he even MENTIONED the time they were imprisoned (again, hugely momentous need I say it again?), so don't even try to wank the significance of that out of this episode. Seriously. Don't.
He doesn't care that she's snippy with him or is treating him badly. He's sucked that up since the WAT episode. Hell, he even ignores her when she makes those bitter remarks about him losing his firebending. No, he's going all out to find the roots of the real trouble. AND, for that matter, taking on a dangerous mission to do so, which puts HIM in real trouble, because the Fire Nation would not only capture him but demand him dead on sight. He's a traitor, and his father decided the fitting punishment himself WHEN HE SHOT LIGHTNING AT HIM FOR PETE'S SAKE. And when he had lightning shot back AT him, BY ZUKO... you know, I don't think Zuko being seen by the Fire Lord's forces ever again would really benefit him much, would it?
So just because it's not spelled out in black and white for you in one episode doesn't mean the people who have actually have fucking EYES can't see Zuko as a whole.
Also what the
Uh, wat. Fanwanking your own concepts much? He'd never seen her bloodbend before, so it's natural he would be shocked. Nothing about that was mentioned to do with Aang, so don't assume that it is.
Fucking people I swear.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 29, 2012 12:40:28 GMT -6
I'd like to quote something from another thread for another rebuttal.
And this is to the idea that the Katara a lot of us see as a 'sassy vixen' is 'completely made up'. Uh. It absolutely isn't. There were instances of this Katara showing up in a number of ways. One such instance was even as early as season 1, and it was in the fight with Zuko in TSotN. Zuko even remarked on her becoming a 'big girl', to which she smirked at him like nobody's business. She wasn't indignant at the remark, she didn't get angry as she typically does (like when Sokka makes sexist remarks), she fucking. SMIRKED. So yeah, completely made up? Bullshit. This 'wily smirking warrior princess' (thanks emletish for the apt description XD) showed up because of the sheer fun she was having. Just her, herself. And it showed a feisty side to her character which would live on through her interactions with Zuko.
Fast forward to Season 3. She's snarky to him about his bending in The Firebending Masters. She isn't just angry and distrustful, oh no- she's toying with him. And she's enjoying it. Yet again, she's letting out this side of her character which she seldom shows to anybody else. And when Aang and Zuko get back from their field trip, Katara teases Zuko about his firebending form, getting him embarrassed when he admits it was called 'The Dancing Dragon'.
It isn't because she hates him, either (although she really doesn't like him at that moment in time). Because if you look at the way she is later, in Ember Island Players:
And, if you will, Sozin's Comet:
Not just 'determined: let's do this' but saying it would be her PLEASURE.
There may even be more than this. But the fact is, while Katara still has her fierce temper, she herself has actually grown in a number of ways. She's not just the sweetly passionate Katara you meet at the beginning, she has more bite to her. And that bite is what makes her so attractive with Zuko's character. Even Book 3 Zuko (as opposed to just snarky book 1 Zuko) has elements of sass in him. Observe:
Oh, and he's a sarcastic fucker.
^ Sarcasm which goes right over Aang's head by the way. Not Katara's though, as you can tell from her expression.
Honestly. I get that people see Katara one way because of the things they see her for, but rejecting facets of her personality that are CLEARLY there just because they don't 'show up' as much? No. It still has power, it still shows potential for change, and it still draws our attention a good deal, especially when one character in particular draws them out. Character growth has a habit of doing that, y'know. It shows that the characters are developing beyond their original roots, and thus, develop their senses and tastes beyond what they originally were geared towards. Especially, as I said at the beginning, given Katara's age and the 'mid point' she is at in her growth. Couple that with the naivete and still-childlike behaviour which is clearly LAMPSHADED TO HELL in Aang, and you have yourself an overpowering Zutara dynamic there, ghostrider.
Also, 'sassy Katara' is best Katara. Just sayin'.
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Post by emletish on Nov 29, 2012 22:25:57 GMT -6
Here's my favourite weird convoluted peice of Kataang logic.
Katara is the reincarnation of the airnomad's love for Aang (guru episode is often quoted here). She is the reincarnation of their love for Aang ppl - so therefore its truluv4eva between Aang and Katara because you can't fight fate/destinty/reincarnation or what have you.
even if we accept this logic on face value - it is still a hotmess of everything. this is a logic car crash! Now here I was thinking that the other airnomads would have had platonic/parental feelings towards Aang. not, you know sexy feelings, which is just all kinds of wrong. To me that would suggest that if Katara was actually meant to be the reincarnation of the airnomads love she would show platonic/paternal feelings - not the sexy feelings - towards Aang.
and lo and behold she does! no sexy feelings that I can detect, and an arse ton of maternal feelings.
We Zutarans get reamed out for suggesting that Katara is too materal with Aang for it to be romantic and then the Kataangers come out with clonkers like this. They are saying Katara is the collective reincarantion of Aang's parent figures.
parental figue =/= romantic partner.
it's surely not that difficult a concept, is it?
My wily, smirking warrior princess is too good for incest or an oedipus tragedy.
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