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Post by emletish on Nov 12, 2012 23:32:09 GMT -6
the biggest problem I have with the Aang = shoulder angel/ Zuko = shoulder devil dynamic is how much it infantalises Katara. it saying that under Aang's influence Katara wouldn't be bothered by all this Anger and morally grey feelings like the desire for revenge on the man who murdered her mother. but under Zuko's dark influence she feels all these bad feels.
Does Katara herself not have any agency in her own feelings? I mean seriously, Katara's ongoing mourning for her mother was a crucial part of her character. I felt like she still had yet to forgive herself over what happened - partially because she blamed herself for her mother's death. Katara felt this anger and this grief long before Zuko and to dismiss these feelings as 'his bad infleunce' is a disservice to both characters. without Zuko and his non-judgemental support, she would have never got the chance to confront her demons, and get some closure. Without the southern raiders, Katara doesn't get the chance to face these feelings, and make her own choice. She chooses to let go of her anger, but not to forgive Yon Rha and I think that this was a very fitting choice (why should she forgive Yon Rha, when he has no done anything to atone for what he did? seriously now Aang?).
The most important thing here was that Katara got to make her own choices.
Zuko supported Katara's choices.
Aang would have preferred to make her choices for her.
I dislike how Aang is cast as this all knowing white knight who is patronising and completely dissmisses Katara's feelings and choices and spouts advice that he would not follow himself (he did not forgive the sandbenders - even though he used them as an example. He went into a rage and nearly killed them all and needed Katara to cool him down).
actually one of the things that really ticked me off in the epsiode was the way Aang said "you sound like Jet" - rather than "you sound like Jet when he was going to blow up the dam. By just saying Jet it is as if Jet's whole character was bad. As I remember, we last saw Jet pretty much sacrificing himself to give the gaang time to get away. Yes, JEt did some bad things and was a bit of a jerk, but he had also suffered tremedously and was very confused and genuinely tried to atone for doing wrong by Katara. I felt like Aang just dissming his whole character out of hand was Way Out Of Line, just quietly. Wasn't JEt Aang's friend too?
but this whole Aang is holier-than-thou and certainly Holier than Katara and a thousand times holier than that shoulder devil Zuko - it is such a simplistic approach that actually belittles all teh characters involved.
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Post by harlowrd on Nov 13, 2012 1:03:53 GMT -6
the biggest problem I have with the Aang = shoulder angel/ Zuko = shoulder devil dynamic is how much it infantalises Katara. it saying that under Aang's influence Katara wouldn't be bothered by all this Anger and morally grey feelings like the desire for revenge on the man who murdered her mother. but under Zuko's dark influence she feels all these bad feels. Yes, that's exactly it. This is why I find it hard to take the way most canon shippers seem to interpret this ep very seriously: it's too shallow for me. I only started interacting with canon shippers because of Korra, and I was shocked to see how poorly they understood TSR and its (and Zuko's) importance to Katara's development, regardless of ship preferences. |
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 14, 2012 9:24:26 GMT -6
I don't like the way some people do pin Zuko against Aang. To me, they both had decent points. Killing Yon Rha wouldn't bring her mother back. But I don't think Aang had any right to tell Katara she needed to forgive him. This. The thing is, I surmised that Zuko and Aang were both half right. Zuko was wrong in that vengeance-justice was the way to get closure (implied by his additional 'justice' I guess), but he was right that Katara needed to face YR. Which is what Aang had to concede to, interestingly enough, before he would even let Katara go. He even made a point of saying 'I forgive you' for daring to take Appa 'when his back was turned' LOL. But here, Aang was right that she needed to let her anger go. The PROBLEM was the WAY he addressed this, and the way people. Keep. Missing this- while getting into their head folk are demonising Aang just by criticizing him quite rationally- really grates on my nerves. I also don't like the way he injected a platitude on top of Katara's experiences, especially that one about poison. How would he know what kind of poison vengeance left and, for that matter, how it compared to the poison already coursing through Katara's veins in the entirity of the episode? The kind that's hidden from view for a long-ass time? Said poison is what really drove those intense actions, like the bloodbending at will. Under normal circumstances she wouldn't do something like this, but that's only because she didn't have the means to let loose like she did here. I think the sooner people stop denying that this is in fact a facet of Katara's personality, rather than something entirely brought on by Zuko, the closer people will be to actually understanding Katara as a three-dimensional character. As far as the comparison with losing Appa is concerned, I'm not going into the whole 'he's just a pet' thing because that seems a bit unnecessary. I WILL say that the nature of the loss isn't the same, though (did Appa raise Aang? I think not), not to mention Aang did actually get Appa back eventually. Katara's mother just friggin DIED and she had to live with that for YEARS. Whereas Aang got Appa back in the matter of ..what, a week? Few weeks? (Can't remember.) The fact is, the poison that Katara felt over her mother and the poison Aang felt over Appa's disappearance doesn't compare entirely. Aang knows in the end that the sandbenders didn't kill Appa (or even hurt him?). So it would be ridiculous to justify take a killing vengeance on them. Yon Rha, on the other hand, he is a murderer. It's not like Sozin, he's dead already. Yon Rha is still out there and he still is able to face up to his crime. Anyway 'scuse me if this looks like it's coming from nowhere, it isn't. I was looking at another forum and the Southern Raiders comparison on there, and felt like bringing it to the discussion over here.Also, I'd like to address the matter of Aang not understanding Katara. Just because he 'gets her pain to an extent' from experience, does NOT mean he 'understands her'. There are all kinds of circumstances surrounding this stuff, which is part of Katara's character and the way she is. Besides, she's the one who's had to look after Aang for so long, I think she's aware of what he's been through. She's not blind for Pete's sake. So when she said 'you wouldn't understand', she meant that there are other things at play besides 'you know the concept of unbelievable pain and rage'. Dag nabbit, Aang. And fandom for that matter. Last thing. Zuko did not outright mock Aang's culture. Full stop. He mocked Aang for playing the 'guru goody goody' over Katara's actions, and for lording advice- from what was likely his schoolteachers for all he knew- over something that's happening in the real world. He didn't specifically say that his culture's wrong, but he's a kid for Pete's sake. Hence 'airtemple preschool'. 'Airtemple' was just something to give it context. Although maybe he does have reservations to the pacifist aspect of his culture in particular, so that might be part of his irritation. That much isn't clear. But to say that he was outright 'mocking his beliefs' as a whole is kind of base and presumptuous. |
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Post by avatarfreak14 on Nov 28, 2012 4:38:34 GMT -6
I totally agree. I know Aang lost his entire nation to the Fire Nation so he can relate, but Aang himself didn't exactly forgive them. He moved on because Katara convinced him that he was the Avatar and that he was needed now. But she didn't ask him to forgive them. I also agree with one of the comments above that said Yon RHa did nothing to earn forgiveness. In fact he kind of dug a hole for himself when he offered up his own mother. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.
By the way, can someone tell me how to get a display photo on my profile. I haveno idea what to click when I'm on profile. Also the "bender" and "non-bender" tag... Can I change that?
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Post by advocaat on Nov 28, 2012 12:36:01 GMT -6
Also, your bender/non-bender status is based on your post count. Post more to level up.
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Post by dynamojacks on Nov 28, 2012 14:09:16 GMT -6
Yeah I would like to know WHERE in the series Aang actually forgave Sozin? Or the sandbenders for that matter?
I should also make a point of Zuko actually having come from the Fire Nation so, his perspective of the Fire nation's evils come partly from his own guilt. He knows they have to suffer and pay their dues for the things they've done, just as he too has done- he found that he wasn't to be so easily accepted after all, and he didn't actually kill anybody in the end; hell, he even turned on Combustion Man. Simply doling out forgiveness on a silver platter is an utterly insulting concept for him.
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Post by avatarfreak14 on Nov 28, 2012 16:21:40 GMT -6
By the way, can someone tell me how to get a display photo on my profile. I haveno idea what to click when I'm on profile. Also the "bender" and "non-bender" tag... Can I change that? Click 'Profile', then 'Modify Profile'. Scroll down to 'Avatar URL' and then copy/paste the url of your chosen picture into the space provided. Then you just have to enter the dimensions into the width and height (the maximum we allow here is 240px by 240px). Then you just scroll down again and click the 'Modify Profile' button. Done. Thanks! |
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Post by avatarfreak14 on Nov 28, 2012 16:22:53 GMT -6
Also, your bender/non-bender status is based on your post count. Post more to level up. Thank you! |
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